Article 1, Section 8 - Question for Conservatives

Who would have the Fruits of my Labor?

So your talking about those specific defined enumerated powers again.....

......were getting there.....

Because The Post Office is a form of General Welfare......a benefit to all people....to be paid for by all people.....

While Democrat Wealth Redistribution Programs to Nowhere are a benefit to a specific group of people (Lazy Liberal Slobs)......and paid for by stealing from a specific group of people (Hard Working Conservatives).
.
.

 

Lol. Thank you for making my argument for me.

After stating the enumerated powers, the Founders said that Congress can make ANY law necessary to carry out said powers. Again, one of the powers is to provide welfare. Congress decides which laws are "necessary" to provide welfare, not you.

 

That is something that many people don't understand. A law does not need to be clearly stated in the constitution. As long as the constitution does not actually prohibit the government from makeing a law, the law can be made.

 

Well first thing first......there is no enumerated power regarding General Welfare. General Welfare would be the culmination and result of the specific defined enumerated powers the Founders listed. "General Welfare" isnt even mentioned in that section anywhere else besides what can only be described as the pre-text or summary.

Secondly....If there was a shred of logic or active brain activity behind what your contending......

......The Founders wouldnt have went to the trouble of listing those specific defined enumerated powers....because they were all already covered by "The Power to provide for the General Welfare"

See how easy The Founders made it....and to what levels of perversion The Democrat Party must go to subvert it?
.
.
.

 

If the Tenth Amendment never existed......perhaps what you said could be contrived as True......
.
.

 

He didn't make your argument for you. "Welfare" refers to the things enumerated in the Constitution to provide for the health of the states united under it. Congress can make the laws that support those things. Where is charitable giving by the government of your tax dollars listed in the things that provide for the welfare of the states?

It's a question of what constitutes the authorized powers of government, and what does not. If you think the things enumerated in the Constitution somewhere authorize your understanding of welfare as the government using taxation to provide for charitable relief, then kindly point us to that language.

I'm not trying to be difficult here. I really want to understand your position, but so far, I don't.

 

If Congress ONLY has the power to effectuate the enumerated powers, why did the Founders then give Congress ADDITIONAL powers to create any and ALL laws necessary to provide for the general welfare? The Congress has the power to decide which laws are "necessary" to provide for the general welfare. If Congress decides that high poverty is detrimental for the welfare of the nation, they can create the necessary laws to mitigate it. You don't like it, vote them out.

Congress, and the Supreme Court, have decided that having 40 million people uninsured, discourages the general welfare of the United States. Therefore they have used their powers to "lay and collect taxes" and have "regulated" the insurance companies accordingly. The enumerated power of commerce regulation is very vague, without additional Congressional powers to create laws as necessary to regulate commerce would deem said enumerated power useless and impossible to interpret.

Get it?

 

The Tenth Amendment was written after the Constitution. Lol.

 

If not for LAWS...how else would the foregoing powers ever be used?

....He shoots...he scores....

Well that would be 100% unconstitutional....you cant promote General Welfare by stealing from one and giving to another.....

And if The Founders had wanted Government to act as a Charity and Congress as the supreme judges of Good and Evil......they would have written it so.

Well on that basis....Government has the power to force feed you 10 servings of fruits and vegtables everyday right?

....you know to promote the General Welfare.....
.
.

 

Well thank you Mr Helper....
.
.

 

What is the point of allowing Congress to create laws in addition to the enumerated powers if the Founders wanted Congress to adhere strictly to the enumerated powers only?

Can you tell me exatly what the Founders meant when they gave power to Congress to "regulate commerce...among the several states"? Nobody can. That is my point. Democrats and Republicans have different interpretations of "regulate commerce". Therefore, it is Congress' perogative to create laws as they deem necessary to "regulate commerce". The enumerated powers are specific powers given to Congress, but they are granted additional powers to effectuate the enumerated powers.

You have to incorporate this statement into your argument, "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

An "other Power" explicitly given to Congress is to "lay and collect taxes to provide for the general welfare."

 

LOL....then why did they bother listing the enumerated powers?

For the fun of it?....for examples?....Space filler?

Liberalism is a complete lie and utter fraud.....now you know......
.
.

 

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

The "and all other Powers" goes beyond the "foregoing Powers" (which refers to the enumerated powers) and, therefore, destroys your argument. Oops.

 

That.....or its talking about all the other specific and defined powers delegated to branches of government other than Congress.

[/pwnage]
.
.
.

 

Let's break this down:

First Enumerated Power - "To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"

1. Congress has the power to tax for general welfare purposes. You following so far?

Last Enumerated Power - "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

2. Congress decides which "laws" are "necessary" for carrying out all powers vested by the Constitution, among them is the power to tax in order to provide for general welfare.

So it is clear that Congress has the power to tax and create laws as necessary to provide for the general welfare.

I think the problem is you don't like Congress' historical interpretation of "general welfare". Sucks to be a Conservative.

I don't know how much clearer it can be...

 

I am going to try and be as nice as possible when I say this but a person who honestly believes that we get our "money" from the govt should not be trying to have an honest and intelligent debate in regards to the constitution and matters pertaining to our monetary policy and taxation.

Go read up on what money is first and foremost. Then try and read the words, what many have already tried to show you, of our founding fathers. Quit listening to the twisting of those words by politicians and lawyers. They are whats wrong with this country. Changing the meaning of words is despicable because less than intelligent or uninformed people do not do research on their own and take the word of said politicians/laywers/talking heads on TV and therefore come to the conclusion that the founding fathers meant that citizens should be taxed to pay for other citizens not capable or too lazy to work.

 

I am going to stop you right there. It specifically says "united states" NOT CITIZENS!!!! Hello mcfly!!!! General welfare of the states as a whole AKA the U.S.A.

You have become so used to associating the word "welfare" with people too poor, lazy or disabled and unable to work. That is not what welfare meant in 1776.

Going by your definition of general welfare I could easily say that my general welfare is served best by NOT giving my tax dollars to people not able to work for whatever reason. So that is my definition of general welfare as it applies to me.

See the difference? You are taking the word "welfare" and applying it as YOU see fit. What you consider welfare I do not. Also....when the constitution was written then were no income taxes. The founders would revolt today at the notion but I digress. To think that "general welfare" was written into the constitution meaning we work and give a certain % of our income to the govt to be redistributed to people not working is asinine. Stop trying to twist the words of the constitution. Read the founders own words in letters they wrote after the Constitution was signed. It is all in there.

 

One should not confuse the welfare state with the general welfare clause.

One should also ask themselves why big business supported the passage of the Social Security act.

 

"All powers vested by the Constitution" matters here. While this might seem expansive at first glance, it's also restrictive. Congress is limited to the powers vested by the Constitution. There was never any intention for the "general welfare" and commerce clauses to be used as catchalls for anything and everything that Congress dreams up. It is the Constitution that establishes what powers Congress can use to provide for the "general welfare".

"all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers".

Everything points back to the limits of government established in the Constitution itself. Congress wasn't vested with the power to give itself new powers. Using taxation to engage in charitable redistribution of wealth is not one of the powers they were granted. Congress deciding that poverty is bad for the states' "general welfare" doesn't mean they get to make up new powers to address that situation. They're limited to the ones they have.

 

Umm no where in the constitution or bill of rights does is state "provide the general welfare", on the other hand it dose state "promote the general welfare". There's a world of difference between promoting and providing.

 

The OP has actually made one very good, although unintended, argument about what the government is able to do, but yet does so poorly.

Educate.

 

There's plenty more. But what is clear with the liberal rocket scientist is that they did not bother with their homework, but rather read a couple of sentences in the Constitution, perhaps thinking no one else had ever seen them, and were now an expert. Coming to PF to trumpet their Constitutional brilliance !

Which brings us to the most accurate words of Ronald Reagan. 1964

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so."

 

"Welfare" =/= "the general welfare."

How far the American educational system has fallen... sheesh.

 

Your position is FOS. Moving the goalposts to what "we conservatives" (as though you can conveniently lump in beliefs of any person who has called themselves a Conservative into one pot and make me defend them all) support is nonsense.

Enumerated. Powers. Nothing beyond that. You've gotten your answer, now lick the boots of the person who provided it.

It's clear that you have no interest in what the Constitution says. As a libera, you simply wish to defeat Conservatives, and will move the goal posts as needed to justify your position.

Your position fails. You asked how the Constitution defends the notion against public welfare, and you received two excellent rebuttals, direct from the voices of Davy Crockett and James Madison.

If you were intellectually honest about your stated goal, you would join those of us who SUPPORT what they said, instead of dishonestly claiming that because some people support stupid Government sponsorship of 'science and art', we lose our ability as INDIVIDUALS to object to such things.

You're trolling. Stop it.

 

It's more a case of evasion and deception as opposed to a lack of education. The "liberals" want the welfare state in all of it's manifestations to be maintained and expanded and they want the legitimacy of Constitutional authority as a justification.