After watching this: Could you ever vote for a democrat again?

Then.... You have no vote. Pretty juvenile attitude.

 

Come again?

 

A few problems with your posting.

The entry wage at GM is less than $20/hr. That is a long way from the figure you got from the NYT. But that's not new for the NYT. They often misstate things to get their pro corporate message across.

If Social Security is a Ponzi scheme what do you call insurance? That also pays off some with contributions from others. Same thing.

I'm not saying all regulations are good. I'm saying that without regulation we will suffer boom and bust until one man owns the world.

So much of what you say is old disproved right wing talking points.

 

I wasn't referencing "starting wages," but average wages (sorry I wasn't specific). I don't have the article in front of me (and I rarely use the NYT for anything), but the AP & Yahoo mimic these figures (and they're both equally as liberal as the NYT, unfortunately)... suggesting that GM pays an average of $56/hr and Ford pays $58/hr (for salaray ($41-43) + benefits ($15)) to their employees (new and old).

Health insurance? Certainly a ponzi scheme. I don't like health insurance - I'd rather remove that obstacle and have a direct relationship with my doctor. The only thing health insurance does is increase the cost of medical care.

Economic booms and busts are completely natural in a free market... They've happened since the 17th century and will happen with or without government intervention through regulations. Hell, the biggest regulation imposed on the economy was the formulation of the Federal Reserve Banks and the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. The propaganda, at the time, was that the establishment of these banks and the oversight from the government would aid in the prevention of recessions/depressions and a stabilization of the economy.

Guess what... That never happened. We've experienced depressions, great depressions, recessions and great recessions since that time. Heck, we experienced a depression shortly after the formulation. The only thing we've achieved through a central banking system is a more expansive and powerful government (over its people) and little to show for it.

That being said, I do agree that some regulations are probably necessary, but few and far between.

What has been disproved in what I previously said? And who said it was disproved?

 

Here are a couple of things from FactCheck:

"... in a Nov. 18 column in the New York Times, business reporter Andrew Ross Sorkin wrote, "At GM, as of 2007, the average worker was paid about $70 an hour, including health care and pension costs."

The problem is, that’s just not true. The automakers say that the average wage earned by its unionized workers is about $29 per hour."

"As for whether Toyota workers earn more than employees of U.S. domestic automakers: In 2006, at Toyota’s Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrysler, according to the Detroit Free Press."

I wasn't referring to just health insurance. All insurance is like SS. Everyone pays in and everyone is eligible (eventually) to receive pay outs.

The economic collapse of 2008 could not have happened if the Glass-Seigal Act had not been rescinded during the Clinton years.

You are welcome to believe anything you wish. But if you want to debate something, let's use actual facts and not ideological fabrications.

In this class war being waged by the economic elite against working people there is a lot of propaganda being thrown about.

 

I agree... there's a ton of propaganda, especially from the mainstream media and liberal sites like Factcheck.org. If I want the truth, I have to search awfully hard these days... Unfortunately, the majority of sources come from liberal outlets, and if I were to source a more accurate source, such as the Daily Caller or Washington Times, you'd say they were right leaning and biased. No one wins...

That being said, just because Fact Check says something isn't so and just because they asked a UAW member about wages, doesn't mean that they've successfully refuted an argument. It just adds to the confusion of the mix/mash media culture we have.

The big 3 claim these numbers are correct, the UAW claims they're not... NYT, Yahoo & the AP all quote the $50-60 number (which is the average salary ($28-29 + benefits ($15) + pension payments ($15)), while Fact Check quotes the UAW numbers of just $29 (without taking benefits or pensions into consideration - which all cost money). The UAW is being dishonest. They obviously know the benefits they get - they fought for them.

"Detroit automakers were paying their hourly workers an average of $69,368 per year in 2008, while the biggest foreign-based competitors were paying $70,185, as reported by the Associated Press. But salaried workers were still making a lot more -- an average of $122,963 compared to $81,506 for foreign rivals." - USA Today

My opinion of Health Insurance extends to other insurances, as well. Insurance just increases prices on the end product, for which the insurance is intended to cover.

In regards to the economic collapse of 2008, that's certainly part of it (and I included that in my previous post, when I indicated problem years - 1977, 1995, & 1999).

The "Class War" is being perpetuated by liberals. This is a classless society, in which anyone (born into any walk of life) can achieve prosperity and success, if they try.

You're acting like my "beliefs" are enshrouded in non-research, thus it's blind acceptance/belief. Everything I argue, I research. I wouldn't waste my time in many of these threads if I were just going to say "I believe this, just because..." I'm invested in the well-being of my country and so I find it important to debate others in this political battlefield of ideas. If you're going to insult my intelligence, by suggesting that I argue in ideological fabrications, then you might want to prescribe to the same rules of engagement. Your reliance on sites, like Fact Check, is a slap in the face to objectivity and validity.

 

Kevin, I didn't rely on just factcheck. The same results are on Bloomburg and the UAW site. Even more, I suppose. I didn't check everywhere.

To come up with those high wage figures they added in the pay of each worker the legacy costs of all the outstanding pensions. The current workers don't get that pay. This number diddling came from the Heritage Foundation and right wing pundits jumped on it.

If you don't think there is a class war being waged you are not looking.

Why do righty politicians say, " We don't have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem." when the only thing they want to cut are things for people, not corporations. There was a recent vote in the Senate to cut corporate welfare for the fossil fuel industry. The bill was defeated by all the Republicans and 27 Senate Democrats.

Why are food stamps being cut while we bail out failed financial industry CEO's and keep useless wars going? Why is our infrastructure collapsing with no funding for rebuilds while we give ag subsidies to bucks up hobby farmers?

The only ones denying there is a class war are the ones waging it.

I would disregard anything from the Wash Times, Fox or Britebart because they have been wrong so often. As far as information goes I'd also want to double check the NYT, LA Times, Chicago Trib, CNN and MSNBC.

 

I didn't say I didn't think there was class warfare going on... I said the liberals were perpetuating it. There needn't be a class war, because everyone can pick themselves up out of poverty if they want to. Liberals keep people in poverty by providing welfare... and entirely too much of it. The people have voted to enslave themselves to their government and government is just making them comfortable in it. The more the liberals promise, the more democrats in poverty will vote for them.

Righty politicians say that, because it's true... Our revenue under Bush was the highest it had ever been. But that doesn't make a lick of difference if outrageous spending continues. The biggest cost to the US Federal Government is social welfare programs (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, etc.). Defense spending has been relatively low over the past 20yrs, ranging from 16-21% of total Federal Government Outlays. Human Resources (which includes all of the welfare programming) constitutes 59.5% (at the lowest point in spending - 1994) to 69% (highest point in spending EVER - 2010) for the same time period. That's why righty politicians keep talking about cutting welfare spending.

Where is all of this infrastructure failing/collapsing? I've yet to see it. In fact, I see construction on our roads here in VA every day. It's actually quite annoying.

lol... Washington Times, Fox & Breitbart have been wrong so often? It really makes me wonder what you read/listen to/watch. I've seen the exact opposite on numerous occasions. How many times has MSNBC, et al. blamed the Tea Party for mass shootings and assassination attempts? Try all of them... And they've been wrong every time. Or, how about the Trayvon Martin shooting? The libs said it was a white guy - obviously a racist. Turns out he was a hispanic and a democrat, to boot. Not only that, but NBC literally cut portions of the 911 call that Zimmerman made in order to make him sound like a racist. Turns out they had to apologize and play the whole tape. Not only that, but time after time the mainstream liberal media refuses to cover anything that would show their fellow liberal comrades in a poor light. There's a reason they're all losing money... and it's not because of the internet.