Obese? Stop preaching that it's 'okay'.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Jack Napier, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    And how come you can have one morbidly obese person and their parents and siblings are stick thin?
     
  2. godisnotreal

    godisnotreal Well-Known Member

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    Like most threads on this forum, the real science is completely lost on most people. Obesity is multifactorial, but the more we learn about it, the more it seems like a biological phenomenon. Firstly, there is a genetic component. we know that obesity has a positive concordance in monozygotic twins--about 70-80%. So it's definitely largely genetic. But there's more to it. We also know about a hormone called gherelin, which is essentially a hunger hormone. Think you are skinny and have good self control? Think again. If I hook you up to an IV and infuse gherelin, you will start to consume more calories, and will gain weight. That's been shown, both in rats and in humans. They've actually developed an obesity vaccine - which blocks gherelin in rats, and they actually become skinny. There's another molecule, called leptin, which operates as the opposite of gherelin, and causes satiety.

    The interesting thing is--your body is very smart. It knows exactly how to maintain your weight at a certain set level. For example, my set weight is 150. No matter how much or little I try to eat, my weight is always 150. This precise control over body weight is modulated by complex biological processes. In obese individuals, these processes have gone awry, and their set weight is set way too high. This is , of course, not their fault. It's just their biology.

    Which brings me to my main point--obesity is a biological phenomenon. And you can't blame people for being obese, any more than you can blame them for having cancer.
     
  3. Cdnpoli

    Cdnpoli Banned

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    It's not okay to be obese. It is a health issue. But it's not cool to make fun of people. Don't have to be rude.
     
  4. godisnotreal

    godisnotreal Well-Known Member

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    you can make fun of people, but only behind their backs
     
  5. Cdnpoli

    Cdnpoli Banned

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    They deserve to have scorn thrown on top of them? So you want a society where overweight people are bullied? That's a great society you have in mind. When people are bullied and tortured enough they snap. They have nothing to live for. People like you demonize them and make them out to be less human.
    They kill themselves. They go on killing sprees. You create a dangerous environment once you single out a certain group.

    I realize being obese isn't healthy and it can be a drain on the healthcare systems but your idea is the worst one I have seen. Where is your humanity? It is lacking here.
     
  6. Cdnpoli

    Cdnpoli Banned

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    All throughout history being overweight was attractive because it meant you were wealthy. Obviously it is not attractive anymore.
     
  7. Cdnpoli

    Cdnpoli Banned

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    People are fat because they turned away from the fairy in the sky? Okay..
     
  8. Cdnpoli

    Cdnpoli Banned

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    What would they say about people who smoke cigarettes? Alcoholics? Drug addicts? Or do they not use up our healthcare resources either?
     
  9. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    Well I do my part everyday. I am always pointing out and mocking fat people. Of course I also point out midgets, dwarves, bald people, old people, people with hearing aids, with canes or walkers, driving scooters, wearing to much make-up, wearing spandex, fanny packs (yes I still see people wearing those even today) and anyone that has warts or skin conditions. Basically there isn't a day that goes buy that I don't guffaw out loud to at least a half dozen people. Its very therapudic and more people should do it. :)
     
  10. Hairball

    Hairball Well-Known Member

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    Government induced market incentives promote obesity too. For example, the govt. is subsidizing the soy industry and putting that toxic crap in school lunches as a high-carb replacement for good healthy food.
     
  11. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    See people? This is the problem with socialized medicine. See how it is "our" resource and not the business of the individual anymore to live their life as they see fit? Take note.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And the corn industry etc...
     
  12. Unifier

    Unifier New Member

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    All throughout history? I doubt primitive man would agree with you.
     
  13. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    I didn't mention God, just the notion that you cannot do just anything you want to. That's the point. We've lost the notion of self-control, of saying that anything people want to do is bad. No society has ever lasted once everybody decides that they can do whatever they want to. Self-control is a good thing. Self-control is what makes civilization work. In the case of Gluttony, self-control keeps you from needing a bypass at 35 and driving up health care costs. It does good to suggest that certain behaviors are undesireable and cause social problems. It's the actual truth -- some behaviors that people want to do are harmful to that person and other people. Sloth is bad for society, because it means that others have to work harder to support you. Gluttony is bad for you, but also for society as it makes healthcare more expensive to cover your gastric bypasses and heart surgery.
     
  14. Jack Napier

    Jack Napier Banned

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    All valid points, but another subject.

    The subject here is obesity.

    Best we stick with that.
     
  15. skeptic-f

    skeptic-f New Member

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    Typical politically correct whining. The way things are going, it won't be long until the obese are in the majority in North America. We're not talking about the two fat kids in the class of a generation ago; we're talking about 40% or more of the kids in the class being obese. Your sort don't want mandatory minimum exercise periods in school or extending school hours; you don't want seperate insurance rates for the obese families (even though statistics back up those higher rates) and you don't care if our military ends up staffed by recent immigrants who aren't obese.

    What is your solution, CdnPoli? Your bullied and snapped few would be worthwhile sacrifices if they got the attention of the rest of the obese. Just looking at cold hard numbers, the number of bullied who commit suicide is a lot fewer than those people killed in car accidents, but I doubt you are suggesting we abandon travelling by car. Similarily, the number of obese who will die a decade or more earlier than they should (after consuming a lot of your Canadian healthcare tax dollars, I bet) will be a lot more than those few obese people with overly fragile egos.

    As for the obese going on killing sprees, the next one I hear about will be the first. They don't have the cardio for it, f nothing else. Your false humanity will kill a lot more people than my approach would. False validation is not true validation, and pretending otherwise doesn't make it so.
     
  16. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    Oh, but the difference is stark. No one pretends that you're oppressed when people make it hard to drink and drive. No one tells people who smoke that they lack "nonsmoker's privilege" or that they should be allowed to smoke just anywhere because to suggest that smoking is unhealthy is "anti-smoking bigotry".

    I'm not suggesting that we make fat people the butt of bullying and jokes, but we can and should put a stop to the nonsense that makes a destructive set of behaviors normal. We should NOT tell them "fat is beautiful", we should tell them the truth. Fat shortens your life, it makes you unable to live a full life, and it causes diseases. Normalizing self-destruction is not a kind thing to do. It's killing people in so many words. Every time we make it OK to be a fat person, we delay them making a positive change in their lives. When we tell them Fat is Beautiful and so on, we make it that much easier to avoid the gym or to eat more cookies. And when it comes to raising kids, I'm sorry, but it's abusive to allow a child's BMI to get to the level of obesity.

    You can do so in ways that are not bullying. I don't think we should bully people at all. We should give them all the help they need to get a handle on their fat problem. I simply oppose enablement. I oppose it for fat people and I oppose it for alcoholics, and I oppose it for learning disabled people -- giving people the excuse to not solve their problems is not a good thing.

    I have LD, but I think the way that we coddle LD kids makes the problem worse. When we give LD people extra time on tests, let people read the test to that person, give the test on colored papers, and so on, we set them up to fail hard. Their boss isn't going to give them extra time to do their reports. If the report is late, they lose clients, and no boss is going to stand for it. For that matter, I don't think any boss in their right mind is going to want a person who admits to being given extra help on the exam. Sure it's harder for you, so what? The boss wants a person who can handle the work, not someone who can only handle it if they are given special privileges that negate the purpose of those tests. The bar exam is timed for a reason, and to allow someone extra time for any reason is to negate that purpose. But worse, the child never learns to deal with his own issues. He doesn't learn to handle it, he gets the problem removed by well-intentioned adults. So he doesn't learn how to refocus himself on his work, he doesn't come up with a strategy, he just flails because he's thrown out in the world with no tools. Then he fails, and he falls back on his diagnosis as an excuse for why he fails rather than his lack of external controls that serve as guide rails. And he achieves far less than he could have otherwise.

    I think it's the same with obesity. The person needs external help if their internal mechanisms are making them obese. They need to learn to use visual cues to prevent overeating if hunger/nonhunger signals in the body are too weak. They need to learn to deal with their triggers for eating. If need be, they might need to put a timer on the refrigerator so they can't eat between meals. They need to be forced to set up an exercise plan and held to account if they don't stick to it. Have their gym call their house if they don't show up to tae bo or zumba or whatever. If you lack internal controls, set up external controls.
     
  17. Jack Napier

    Jack Napier Banned

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    Excellent points.

    If smokers and heavy drinkers are shamed, then shame the fatties.
     
  18. Draco

    Draco Well-Known Member

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    This topic used to be a "if you want to be fat and kill yourself, have at it."

    Socialized medicine is going to change my opinion, drastically.

    Not only are fat people ruining their own lives, now we have to pay for them to do it.

    If I have to pay for their triple biopsies and lap band procedures, I sure as hell am going to scold them for being fat.

    JN is absolutely correct in his OP. The part about even the families dog being fat is completely true. I'd say maybe 5% are obese for actual medical reasons, the rest just lazy.
     
  19. Draco

    Draco Well-Known Member

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    It's sad because people aren't allowed to feel like failures anymore.

    Don't we see that failure builds character and strength through correction?

    My father would retort to any complaint I had with, "Excuses are like ********s, everyone's got one and they all stink. Now sack up and do your job."

    Could be in school, sports, friends or work. I got the same answer that I was responsible for my actions.

    I'd your actions are making you fat, get ready to hear about it others.
     
  20. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    There is a problem with hate and shaming against obese people. Just because someone is obese does not mean we should act like (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s towards them. Particularly teenagers can be cruel towards fat peers.

    However, that does not make wackos that preach obesity is not unhealthy or should be considered beautiful any less wrong.
     
  21. Jack Napier

    Jack Napier Banned

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    I know a women that is obese. The first time I saw her cat I was frankly disgusted. It was so fat that she could not let it in the garden, as the poor thing was no longer able to climb properly. Trees, fences, all of the agility that comes natural to the cat had been turned into some housebound bloated mess.

    Is that not animal abuse? It is to me.

    If you underfed the cat to the point that it was to weak to climb, and if underfeeding the cat was causing organ damage, that would be animal abuse.

    Likewise children.

    If you underfed your children to the level it was likely to cause organ damage and disease, you would and should go to prison.

    I see no difference when it is the opposite way, and make them obese.

    :thumbsup:

    Shock figures reveal a 50% rise in number of obese children starting primary school - Experts claim youngsters suffering from ‘child abuse’

    Shock figures reveal a 50% increase in only four years in the number of reception age pupils who are classed as obese – from 103 in 2007/08 to 150 in 2011/12.

    Meanwhile, a total of 347 primary school starters were found to be either obese or overweight in 2011/12 – a 59% increase on the figure of 218 four years earlier.

    The revelations last night prompted health campaigners to brandish the figures as evidence of “child abuse” and “neglect”, with one expert condemning “unfit parents” and calling for children to be taken out of their care.

    Children are classed as obese if they weigh more than two stone above average levels.

    Tam Fry, a spokesman for the National Obesity Forum, said: “It is neglect. Society needs to step in and say to these parents ‘you are not fit to look after children. We are going to take your children away, slim them down, and sort you out because your household is probably full of awful food’.

    “I do sympathise with some of these parents who were not taught domestic science at school and are struggling to pay for good food, but we have to bite the bullet because it is only going to get worse before it gets better.”

    Suffolk County Council was handed responsibility for public health following an NHS reform that came into effect on April 1 this year.

    But Mr Fry raised doubts over the council’s ability to improve childhood obesity rates after central government “washed their hands of the mess”.

    Dan Poulter, junior health minister and Central Suffolk and North Ipswich MP, called for tougher action to be imposed on parents found guilty of criminal neglect after admitting the figures were a “cause for concern”.

    He also urged the county council and head teachers to step up their efforts in tackling the problem.

    The figures relating to levels of obesity among pupils in Ipswich – which also showed one in three Year 6 students were either obese or overweight in 2011/12 – were published in the National Child Measurement Programme.

    Alan Murray, Suffolk County Council cabinet member for health and adult care, said: “This increase in the recorded number of overweight or obese children in Ipswich primary schools is partly due to an increase in participation rates.

    “With more families taking part we are able to capture more of those children in the ‘at risk’ categories.

    “However we recognise that there are still a number of children in Ipswich and other areas of the county that are considered overweight or obese.

    “We work very closely with the children and their parents to educate and encourage them to live healthy lives.”

    Graham White, Suffolk secretary of the National Union of Teachers, said children were not active enough at school, insisting better-structured PE lessons were needed.


    http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/i...ungsters_suffering_from_child_abuse_1_2322484
     

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