if not God then who/what?

You cannot get something out of nothing. So where did we come from? If there are those that claim God did not create the universe and therefore us, who/what did?

https://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3293

God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer’s Perspective

by Jeff Miller, Ph.D.

[EDITOR’S NOTE: The following article was written by A.P.’s staff scientist. He holds M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Texas at Arlington and Auburn University, respectively, with emphases in Thermal Science and Navigation and Control of Biological Systems.]

“[T]he principles of thermodynamics have been in existence since the creation of the universe” (Cengel and Boles, 2002, p. 2, emp. added). So states a prominent textbook used in schools of engineering across America. Indeed, these principles prove themselves to be absolutely critical in today’s engineering applications. Much of the engineering technology available today is based on the foundational truths embodied in the Laws of Thermodynamics. As the writers of one engineering thermodynamics textbook stated: “Energy is a fundamental concept of thermodynamics and one of the most significant aspects of engineering analysis” (Moran and Shapiro, 2000, p. 35). Do these laws have application to the creation/evolution debate as creationists suggest? What do they actually say and mean? How are they applied today in the scientific world? Let us explore these questions.

The word “thermodynamics” originally was used in a publication by Lord Kelvin (formerly William Thomson), the man often called the Father of Thermodynamics because of his articulation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in 1849 (Cengel and Boles, p. 2). The term comes from two Greek words: therme, meaning “heat,” and dunamis, meaning “force” or “power” (American Heritage..., 2000, pp. 558,1795). Thermodynamics can be summarized essentially as the science of energy, including heat, work (defined as the energy required to move a force a certain distance), potential energy, internal energy, and kinetic energy. The basic principles and laws of thermodynamics are understood thoroughly today by the scientific community. Thus, the majority of the work with the principles of thermodynamics is done by engineers who simply utilize the already understood principles in their designs. A thorough understanding of the principles of thermodynamics which govern our Universe can help an engineer to learn effectively to control the impact of heat in his/her designs.

THE FIRST AND SECOND LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS

Though there are many important thermodynamic principles that govern the behavior of energy, perhaps the most critical principles of significance in the creation/evolution controversy are the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics. What are these laws that not only are vital to the work of an engineer, but central to this debate?

The First Law

The First Law of Thermodynamics was formulated originally by Robert Mayer (1814-187. He stated: “I therefore hope that I may reckon on the reader’s assent when I lay down as an axiomatic truth that, just as in the case of matter, so also in the case of force [the term used at that time for energy—JM], only a transformation but never a creation takes place” (as quoted in King, 1962, p. 5). That is, given a certain amount of energy in a closed system, that energy will remain constant, though it will change form (see Figure 1). As evolutionist Willard Young says in defining the First Law, “Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can only be converted from one form to another” (1985, p. ............................

...............Possibility 3: The Inevitable Implication

To repeat, there are only three possible explanations for the existence of matter in the Universe. Either it spontaneously generated, it is eternal, or it was created. Atheists use the theory of evolution in an attempt to explain the existence and state of the Universe today. In order for the theory of evolution to be true, thereby accounting for the existence of mankind, either all of the mass/matter/energy of the Universe spontaneously generated (i.e., it popped into existence out of nothing), or it has always existed (i.e., it is eternal.). Without an outside force (a transcendent, omnipotent, eternal, superior Being), no other options for the existence of the Universe are available. However, as the Laws of Thermodynamics prove, the spontaneous generation and the eternality of matter are logically and scientifically impossible. One possible option remains: the Universe was created by the Creator.

 

This is very simple:




If you don't know something it's stupid to make something up based on wishful thinking.

 

I don't know, and I am happy to say it.

I don't even know if anything was "created" at all.

And, crucially, neither does anyone else know any of these things.

 

The Universe has always existed.

there is NO evidence for God, and there is no evidence the Universe needs one.
but to be on point, there is NO evidence the Universe had a beginning.
the "Big Bang" is just the point at which we can observe our Universe in Time, Space, and Matter.

 

So you cannot refute the science. Thank you. It is very stupid to respond unscientifically to a scientific argument.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet the science I posted remains accurate.

- - - Updated - - -

Something created the universe.

 

besides your obvious wishful thinking, got any proof of this ?

 

Dude, you do not know the answers. Neither do I. There is not some insider secret that you have which I do not. The difference between people like you and people like me is I'm A-OK with not having all the answers to the universe. Why can't you just accept that?

And besides, the belief that God came down from the heavens, raped his own 13 mother with his Holy Spirit to impregnate her with himself so he could be born and save us from the original sin he himself created is retarded.

 

Most of it, sure. The last paragraph makes some unwarranted assumptions and/or jumps to unnecessary conclusions though.

 

humans are soo arrogant.

they can't simply state "we don't know" when they have a question that cannot be fully answered.

the answer to "what created the universe", is simply "we don't know"

why is that so hard for you to deal with?

 

It is very stupid to respond unscientifically (creating imaginary beings) to a scientific argument.

Something MAY have created the universe.


When humans first saw lightning/fire/rain/eclipises,etc., they didn't understand the science behind it, so they used their IMAGINATION and MADE up something. Some people have not progressed past that ancient point.

 

why are some people soooo desperate to know all the answers?

can't they survive without knowing? I can.

so we don't know all the answers about the universe, big deal. life goes on.

 

If you cant get something from nothing, where did your god come from?

 

maybe the Universe always existed.

 

They wave the science around then promptly trip on it.

 

Human beings are the only species inflicted with this terrible disease of needing explenations for everything.

 

I like how those laws mean that something can't come from nothing, but everyone that uses that as evidence for god wants to ignore the fact that they are saying god is something that came from nothing.

If they don't say that, then they say he just always existed.

If that is the case, then why can't the universe have just always existed? Also, how do you know God always existed? The bible isn't a valid answer because there is rock solid proof that it is not the infallible word of god. That proof is the fact that there are thousands of different versions, many of which contradict each other, so they can't all be infallible.

Logic destroys all evidence for any god in about 10 seconds flat.

 

Your question presupposes that God is a "thing" or a "something". Ironically, the question you pose is self defeating.
"some·thing (sŭm′thĭng)
pron.
1. An undetermined or unspecified thing: "We're all recalling something, furtively seeking something" (Virginia Woolf)."

If "something" (in the context you use) is "undetermined" (not known or ascertained), then how is it possible that you or any other can conclude that God is a "thing" or a "something"?

 

Aren't they though.

- - - Updated - - -

I posted the proof. Unless you can tell me how something appears out of nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Since we both agree that something cannot appear from nothing, how were we created? I'll go with God.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet we were created. Not evolved.

 

If something is not able appear from nothing, from where did your god come from ?
You just contradicted yourself. If God can exist for no reason and has always existed, why not the Universe ?

 

So you know something created us but not God. So who did then?

- - - Updated - - -

Knowledge is about looking for answers. Even when they are answers you do not agree with.

- - - Updated - - -

Take it up with the science I posted. Either a god created us or God did. Something did.

 

Your response has nothing to do with the post of mine you quoted.

"Somehow " the earth and humans came into existence.

I don't know how or why.

But I'm not so needy that I have to MAKE UP something just to make myself feel good.

 

Because there is only one alternative: existence or non existence. What exists is something or some thing. What is not something or some thing does not exist. If God exists, he is, by definition, something or some thing.

 

If Universe 1 didn't pop out of the Void of Nothing then a god being did, a being immortal and all with a blank slate of a mind and nothing else so how did this "baby god" learn anything? If you took a human baby lets pretend its immortal and stuck it in a box with no stimulation for its life even if a genius it would not advance without interaction, others to teach it and the ability to interaction with a Universe. So a reality popping out of nothing a first Big Bang starting the Multiverse makes more sense it would just form natural laws including the Evolutionary Process.

 

excellent post.

 

There you go using such big words like "if". That lone word defeats your argument as the use of that word shows that you entertain an uncertainty regarding the existence of God.