Do Inconsistencies in Star Wars make Yoda's wisdom less true?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by jaktober, May 22, 2014.

  1. jaktober

    jaktober Member

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    People often point out inconsistency in the Bible, a book with chapters written and edited by numerous people over a thousand years, to ignore the wisdom found in the book.

    If you know that the Bible is historical fact, why are you still hung up on the inconsistencies in it?

    Shouldn't we be sharing the wisdom and benefitting from it rather than having sophmoric debates over whether it is fact or not?
     
  2. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Pay attention that from Star Wars a real "religion" :angel: has come: in the UK there is the cult of the "Jedi Knights" :salute:.

    So, if the "wisdom" coming from a Hollywood movie has been adopted by a group of loonies [may be after :beer::beer::beer:], I don't understand why we should consider the Bible [I would add "Holy"] less authoritative.
     
  3. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    This is a good point, a lot of the time, the specific questions that are debated have no actual impact on the greater questions in the subject of religion.

    However, a lot of the theology of Christianity is based upon details in the Bible. The Bible is filled with the kind of stories that could easily be manipulated, knowingly or unknowingly. We know that some of the stories were passed down through generations (and we know what that can do to a story, we can't even Chinese whisper around a room). And this does not only apply to how many angels were in the tomb, but also details which have informed the theology of Christianity, like the resurrection, the burning bush, and arguably every piece of miraculous situations in the Bible, including the existence of God. In fact, unless we take every religion in the world as true, then we've seen the same thing happen with dozens of mythologies and religions, so then clearly anything the Bible can say, it is not reliable material. The only thing that can save the Bible from becoming an epic tale on the same scale as the Völsunglied or the tales about Hercules, and that is not very flattering considering the belief status in those stories, is for the Bible to be inspired by God to avoid corruption. If it then turns out that the Bible is corrupt anyway, that was simply not the case, and then we are given the task of finding out which is more likely, someone coming up with a cool story, or people actually walking on water, judging from experience rather than Bible references.

    Now, exactly how we relate this to Star Wars depends a bit on what quotes we take and how we interpret them. In both the Bible and Star Wars, there are things that ring true. For instance, not falling to the dark side and not killing are both pretty decent ideas. Similarly, secular ideas have stolen both these ideas (with reservations for wordings). There are also things that do not make sense, such as Darth Vader existing or Zombies walking the earth. Secular views are allowed to disregard these.
     
  4. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    Here's the problem....Christians aren't supposed to just believe in the "wisdom" from the Bible (itself contradictory, since it is tribal and xenophobic and vengeful with a wrathful God in the OT.....loving and merciful and turn the other cheek in the NT).

    They're supposed to believe that Jesus died on the Cross, was dead and buried for three days, and on the third day rose from the dead....as both proof and fulfillment of a Covenant that if you believed in him and accepted him as your personal Saviour....you would go to Heaven after you died.

    But...if the same book that promises that and that tells the tale of the Resurrection is FLAWED....then the story of the Resurrection may be flawed....and false. And therefore the promise of Redemption by the Cross...false.

    So....what's "left" of the Bible at that point? As I said, its "wisdom" is contradicted from one section to the next....and if the inconsistancies point to suspicion of the MAIN tenet of Christianity....

    what value does it have?
     
  5. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer New Member

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    Hmmm... Hard to argue with that logic.

    I agree. The wisdom of the Bible belongs in the same category as does the wisdom of Sci-Fi movies.
     
  6. Prof_Sarcastic

    Prof_Sarcastic New Member

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    I don't ignore the wisdom in the book. It just so happens, though, that the wisdom found in the Bible, and in Star Wars, are found in many other places, and can be traced back further than the either Star Wars or the Bible, or just about any other book that happens to say some things that are sensible.

    That does not mean that Star Wars is historical fact. To give a perhaps more salient example, there are wise words in the book Catch 22 by Joseph Heller, and it is set in a historically accurate time period, in a geographically accurate location, with a number of historically accurate details. And yet, the story is entirely fictional, and although some historically accurate people are mentioned, the main characters did not exist. I think you can see the parallel I am drawing here.

    Now, what wisdom is it you want to share? I am reasonably confident that I will have heard it all already because, as I said, it can be found in many other places. If you think there's something in there that I am unlikely to have heard before, I am all ears.
     
  7. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Most of that isn't even an issue or concern. Believe whatever one wants to believe. But many want to instill the morals of God on the rest of society.
     
  8. Gorn Captain

    Gorn Captain Banned

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    Different issue. Obviously we have a contingent of the American population that would like to see this country become a fundamentalist rightwing Christian theocracy. Their rhetoric clearly states it and their legislative agenda clearly indicates that is the direction they want to go in.

    My point was on the idea of "Can we just accept the Bible as flawed...but with some 'good stuff' in it."....Sure.

    "Love thy neighbor" ...help the poor...love is better than hate...peace is better than war...etc. (Again, New Testament.....Old Testament is merely about obeying a wrathful genocidal God and killing anybody who disagrees with you).

    But the "wisdom" is no better or worse than what you find in Buddhism or what have you. And has no more "cosmic validity" than other commonly held positive ideas.
     
  9. jaktober

    jaktober Member

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    How do we get past whether or not someone believes its historical fact to discuss and apply the principles?

    All the books, in some way, pidgeon hole the content when we take into consideration the ego of man. Whether it is the believer who turns off other sources and builds an inaccurate belief system within a bubble, or it is the non-believer who still judges the believer, and thus, blocks themselves from following the wisdom through to its true core.

    Think of the concept of giving. Not just what you want, but what others want. In the bible it talks about giving what is asked.

    99% of people don't practice this. Even the believers. Which we understand because whether or not you believe is irrelevant because the story isn't historical fact (and thus not "true").

    It is what we call a "True Myth." So we believe the morale to be true, but the story to be myth.

    "Darth Vader is...", not "Darth Vader represents..." We don't need to show how smart we are, we all agree it isn't true. And if someone believes it is, then you are still speaking to the truth with them.

    Okay, found it somewhere. Thanks!

    What earlier texts to you refer to? I just found this, started reading: http://avesta.org/vendidad/index.html
     
  10. jaktober

    jaktober Member

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    Only if you disregard that these books weren't written at the same time, and that they reflect the progress of society. The Avesta talks a lot about proper care of the dead, because obviously their culture didn't have that down and it was causing problems.

    The OT represents a society that, while understand that we have free will (something that polythestic religions did not comprehend), that once you sin you are doomed for eternaty. That there was no forgiveness (thus an unforgiving God). The Christians reformed that concept with the Story of Christ.

    That is exactly the question I posed.

    Do you need the story of Christ to be true for you to, say, practice forgiveness? To practice initiative (to he who knocks...). And so forth. If the stories written by numerous people, edited by institutions and government, need to be consistant for us to look at some of the concept the original contributors were trying to get down on paper and share?

    Who said you had to believe the Bible as fact? No one says that about Star Wars. If a group of people started hanging out and talking about how Star Wars was historical fact, would you blame it on the movies and its staff?

     
  11. jaktober

    jaktober Member

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    And Vice-Versa. It is all good if we let go of the bad.
     
  12. Burzmali

    Burzmali Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The inconsistencies of any work do not automatically invalidate any wisdom contained within. But you have to validate that alleged wisdom with outside sources in order to know if it's actually legitimate or not. What a majority of Christians do, from my experience, is claim the wisdom of the Bible is valid because the supposed historical events in the book are all literally true. When someone ties the rightness of the wisdom in the book to the truth of the events in the book, then the inconsistencies become fair game. This is especially true when people start claiming the wisdom in the book includes condemning people they see as inferior: gays, women, other races, etc.
     
  13. Prof_Sarcastic

    Prof_Sarcastic New Member

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    Get past it? I think we're already past it. Your example basically boiled down to "it's nice to give things to people in need and not expect it to be repaid". I think that moral is already pretty ingrained into our society today, even if people don't always practice it. Is there a particular reason why it needs more discussion? And is there a particular reason why the Biblical version of it specifically ought to be invoked?

    I didnt actually say texts, although I imagine Hammurabi's code probably contains a number of wise commands, for example, and Confucius' analects contains some similar wisdom. Other things are likely to be folk wisdom passed down orally.
     
  14. NightSwimmer

    NightSwimmer New Member

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    You don't actually intend for this to be an argument for practicing Christianity, do you?

    Seeking wisdom in literature, any literature, has little (if anything) in common with practicing the Christian religion.
     
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the bible is historical myth....

    people can pass on wisdom from myths in fact they did just that before they wrote books to do the job of passing down knowledge

    myths are more interesting, and people remembered them and retold them over and over... which is why we know of them today...

    even Buddhism talks of a virgin birth just to spice up the myths

    some people though take myths too literally, and that can be dangerous

    .
     
  16. jaktober

    jaktober Member

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    My intention was to invoke conversation. It amazing what asking the right question can inspire others to say.

    To put this in context. I'm a person in the modern world. You could say I was an "athiest" for some time. Recently I moved back into my hometown (which I was never too far away from) to run for City Council ( http://votejack.org ). In the first two months I was able to attend every Sunday Service in my town (I've been to the buddhist and hindu services, and am planning on attending the Jewish service this weekend, if not, then soon, probably during my second round through town).

    My experience is that both "sides" have a lot of the same hang ups, and that many of the concepts, such as the "just give the homeless guy the dollar and don't second guess what he is going to spend it on" aludes even the most "progressive activist." Specifically, I left an Occupy Forum I spoke at and had an activist question why I gave a dollar to a homeless man.

    At the same time, I've had a christian talk about being unappreciated for his community service, after we were talking about a man that (whether fact or fiction) was killed by the people he was serving.

    My intention with this post is to discuss these ideas with members of this forum.
     

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