Why you think EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD deserves to be TORTURED FOREVER unless they drink the same flavor of KOOL AIDE that you do? Isn't that pretty much the foundation of your religion? And why do christians insist that anyone who doesn't agree with that belief is "hate filled"? Also I have noticed a propensity for the moderators around here to shut down threads that strike a nerve. Not because the questions they ask are in any way invalid. But just because the truth sometimes makes people uncomfortable. Do you know what is REALLY offensive? Teaching children that EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD deserves to be TORTURED FOREVER unless they drink the same flavor of KOOL AIDE that you do. But for some reason that is supposed to be OK.
Because their myth is as twisted and death obsessed as they come. Eternal torture is nothing when your moral compass has had its polarities reversed.
Weird, I'm a Christian and I don't believe at all that everybody deserves to be tortured forever unless they share my beliefs. Seems I'm not the only Christian who doesn't: "The history of the doctrine of universal salvation (or apokastastasis) is a remarkable one. Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believed that the wicked would be finally annihilated (in its commonest form. this is the doctrine of 'conditional immortality').[1] Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation, though these few included same major theologians of the early church. Eternal punishment was firmly asserted in official creeds and confessions of the churches.[2] It must have seemed as indispensable a part of universal Christian belief as the doctrines of the Trinity and the incarnation. Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed, and no traditional Christian doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment.[3] Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before. The alternative interpretation of hell as annihilation seems to have prevailed even among many of the more conservative theologians.[4] Among the less conservative, universal salvation, either as hope or as dogma, is now so widely accepted that many theologians assume it virtually without argument. (...)" http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_universalism_bauckham.html
But strangely enough when I point out to christians that according to their mythology Nazi death camp commandants can get into heaven if they pray to Jesus while their Jewish victims who did not must be cast into eternal torture forever about the only response I ever get is, "Well, yeah!" They can't figure out anything wrong with that. Christians are clearly not as developed as you would like to believe. If I had one dollar from every Christian who still believes in eternal damnation I could start my own Christian broadcast network and hit them up for even more money.
Wait a minute. I'm not religious now, but I was born into a Christian family so this is an honest question. Is it true that eternal punishment is up for debate now?
Apparently. Seems you make it up (and change the rules) as you see fit. Rendering the whole claim of eternal and unchanging doctrine a nonsense.
Religion is a kaleidoscope of morality. It takes our inherent morality created over thousands of years of evolution, combines it with our baser instincts and behaviors,distorts it and breaks it into various shapes and colors. It confuses what was already a difficult thing to ascertain, it seeks to force its will over the human condition in a failed attempt to create an objective morality. Every Christian or theist who disregards the most immoral thoughts and actions of religion places the blame of those thoughts and actions squarely on the human being while giving that same religion credit for the morality that allowed them to rejects those same thoughts and actions.
The Christians you hang out with must be very different from the Christians I hang out with then. So does your Christian wife, that youve mentioned in another post, believe youll be eternally damned for not sharing her beliefs? How horrible! Next time she tells you that just quote Paul to her: 1. Cor. 7:13-14a: 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. So if she believes Paul is right - you must be holy, like it or not. - - - Updated - - - As the link I gave you guys tells you it’s up for debate since the beginning of Christianity. Many of the old church fathers did not believe in eternal punishment. The orthodox Church has never been into it much. It’s a Roman Catholic thing that somehow made it into Protestantism, where it was popular and more extreme than the traditional Catholic view until about 1800 when theologians like Schleiermacher started to denounce it and went for universal salvation instead. And in 2014 you’ll be hard pressed to find anybody in my Protestant Church who still seriously believe unbelievers will be punished eternally. Even most contemporary Catholics I know at least hope for universal salvation. The only Christians I can think of who still believe unbelievers will rot in hell are die hard Evangelicals. We don’t have that many of those in Europe. They are for the most part an American phenomenon. And surely most of them don’t rejoice at the thought of others being tortured eternally. That’s why they try so hard to evangelize people.
Well, whether Christians think the Bible promotes eternal punishment or universal salvation pretty much depends on their interpretation of it. There are numerous verses for each position that need to be weighed against each other, such as Jesus is reported to have weighed OT verses against each other. “Books of the Bible argued to possibly support the idea of full reconciliation include the First Epistle to the Corinthians. The sections of 1 Corinthians 15:22, "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ", and 1 Corinthians 15:28, "God will be all in all", are cited.[2][3] Verses that seem to contradict the tradition of complete damnation and come up in arguments also include Lamentations 3:31-33 (NIV), "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love",[7] and 1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV), "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."[8] As well, the Epistle to the Colossians receives attention,[2] with Colossians 1:17-20 reading: "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.[9]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation
in other words, pick and mix to your own personal satisfaction. you can dismiss bits you find embarrassing, and embrace the fluffy lambs! no wonder Christianity is popular in places where folk like their comforts - you can live JUST like a non-believer, but you have the salve of low maintenance lamb hugging for those times when poo hits fans. and best of all, you can still imagine you'll live forever on account of that token gesture (lamb hugging)!
Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics are a bit more complicated than you think they are. Should you want to find out more about them, this sounds like a good English-speaking book to start with: http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/introducing-the-new-testament/264690/esources/chapters/109 When it comes to my lifestyle you are probably right though. Not that I – just like many other Christians - don’t try hard to “walk the walk” in my mundane daily life, but I’m certainly nowhere near getting a halo. But why is it that you are so full of anger, crank? Do you really think every upright Christian should join a mendicant convent/monastery to distinguish themselves from non-believers? Or are you just afraid of death and are jealous of those who allegedly aren’t?
Christians can be decent people. It's not really fair to judge them all based upon the majority. That is stereotyping.
The views TheBlackPearl portrays here aren’t even the views of the majority of Christians. Even the Pope would take issue with them. So it's not just stereotyping. It's being utterly uninformed due to blind prejudice.
So far, junobet is the ONLY christian on this forum or any other I know that claims that. All majors christian religions still have eternal torment. And not every christian can make it to the eternal paradise.
Catholics believe that souls that are non-believers go to a place called Limbo. There they will remain until redemption by Jesus. It is not considered a place of punishment only a temporary place and, since Catholics teach that the soul is eternal, time there is a non-consequence.
Maybe you should talk to more Mainline Protestants, inform yourself on the intricacies of Catholic soteriology or just visit other forums here and there. In this one for example you can find more Christians who think along my lines: http://www.christianforums.com/t7823321-3/
OK. I will check it out. BTW - I am more in your camp. I personally don't believe a hell exists. But I don't know if a heaven exists.
Hey Swimmy I understand the OP uses this approach to point out the inherent vileness of the dogma itself, not as an attack on the individuals who buy it. He is doing what most of us are too gutless to do - stand up and shout about that which is harmful to the human condition. It's long overdue, and needs saying. If proponents of these myths are offended by having such things pointed out, then they probably ought to look at the source ... as opposed to shooting the messenger.
enough with the hackneyed device! the minute anyone gets within sniffing distance of your closet skeletons, you guys start bleating "anger! ... hatred! .... jealousy!". once again, I understand your need to do this, as it gives the impression your position (after all, if others feel such strong emotions, it must all be true!) is legitimate, but it gets boring quickly. it also makes you seem a bit desperate :/ imagine me saying you hate atheists because you're angry at non-god, and jealous of our emancipated peace and happiness. seems kinda silly, no? and VERY transparent. you'd automatically assume I'm feeling threatened. and you'd certainly find it funny, at first.
It was rather obvious that you are angry from the hostility in your post. And I’m honestly wondering why. Now I can halfway understand why you guys are angry with Christians who believe you’ll be eternally punished for not sharing their beliefs. But why are you angry with Christians who express their hope that everybody will be saved, irrespective of whether they share Christian beliefs or not? If a native shaman somewhere in the Amazonian jungle told me my soul will be happily united with the big Jaguar after death, I wouldn’t be able to actually share his specific spiritual views, but I’d still regard it as a nice thought that he includes me in his hopes for the afterlife. I’d give him a big appreciative smile rather than telling him the big Jaguar is crap and he’s not a proper shaman anyway unless he tells me that the Jaguar will eat me.
I don’t know a heaven exists either. I believe, trust and hope that it does. Sooner or later we’ll find out whether my faith was justified. Or else we’ll just be dead and won’t find out anything anymore, nor would we still care. On the off chance that Fred Phelps got it right, we’ll both roast in eternal hellfire while he can gloat at us from a comfy cloud. Just like you I deem this latter idea so unbelievable that it doesn’t exactly scare the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of me.
