NRA, Repubs block new law to stop suspected terrorists from buying guns

I think they'll just walk in and try to buy an AK-47 or whatever else they fancy, just like criminals do every day. The only difference is that the likely terrorist will get his weapon and the criminal will not.

 

Why would a terrorist on a watch-list pass a federal background check?

 

"NRA, Repubs block new law to stop suspected terrorists from buying guns "

I have to agree, you can't just take a Americans rights away willy nilly, if you think they are a terrorist... arrest them and put them away for life

it sucks sometimes, sure, but that is the price of freedom

.

 

Beats the hell out of me. Doesn't matter, because if you read the OP and the story link, you would have seen this:

While the bill remained a nonstarter, more than 2,000 suspects on the FBI’s Terrorist Watchlist bought weapons in the U.S. over the last 11 years, according to the federal Government Accountability Office.

Why don't you ask the NRA why they're blocking this legislation.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself. Your very president has trained and armed terrorists and here you are complaining about the NRA.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=BE955D91504D169A8363BE955D91504D169A8363

 

They stopped a law that was of course nothing but a xenophobic racist anti-Muslim law
that targeted innocent Americans of Arab decent and refugees who practice the faith of
Islam from exercising their Allah given 2nd Amendment rights to obtaining firearms that
are needed for hunting and self protection.

Islam is a religion of peace. Not all Muslims are terrorists, so why do liberals treat them
like criminals and push their pro-hate anti-Muslim paranoia?

 

How many terrorists have a valid state ID and proof of legal residence?

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He only need read this topic for the answer to that.

 

Sound like the federal Background check system is a total failure and should be shut down.

So why do we need another law that won't be enforced like the federal back ground check? Stop pretending it's a poison pill disguised to make the Republicans go along or get bashed in the press. It's right out of the first 10 pages of the Democrat playbook.

 

you can also lose your right to vote.

 

Not really. Most on the no-fly list are not U.S. citizens, making it hard to impossible for them to buy guns in a gun shop. The only AK47s available for sale in the U.S. are semi-automatic ones. The terrorists don't want those, they want the full auto ones they can get on the black market, like they did in Belgium. Do you seriously think that people can buy full auto AK47s in the U.S.?

The thing is the no fly list has no set criteria to get people on it or off it. That is why it took Ted Kennedy three weeks to get his name off of it after he was stopped from getting on a plane.

 

Another thread down in flames!

 

If Ted Kennedy had wanted to buy a gun when he was on the no fly list, he would have been counted as a suspect bought a weapon. Do you liberals not understand the concept of due process? The terrorist watchlist is created without any safeguards. There is nothing stopping a TSA analyst from putting his ex-girlfriends new boyfriend on the watchlist. There are no checks on this government power. That is why we are against it. One Navy LT's husband was on a perfectly legal "prepper" mailing list. He was put on the no fly list for that, which means under the new law, he would be banned from buying a gun. Totally unjust.

 

http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/59643/terrorism-watchlist-secret-us-rules-revealed

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/terrorist-watch-list_n_5617599.html

http://www.newsweek.com/you-could-be-next-top-secret-rulebook-labeling-terrorists-leaked-261236

With such knowledge being common, the question must be asked why you, or anyone else for that matter, would support such a nonsensical approach to doing things.

 

Try google. Easily confirmed.

The shops operate in the open. They can make anything including heavy weapons - from scratch.

 

Ever read the 5th Amendment? The funny thing about "terror watchlists" is that:
1. The government is not required to hold a trial to add a name.
2. The government is not required to provide any information as to why the person is on the terror watch list.
3. There is no clear and defined way to get off the terror watch list.

The problem is the premise of the watch list. Not so much the NRA blocking the watchlist.

Let's not forget that political protests are considered to be low level terrorism.
https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-chal...cy-regard-lawful-protests-low-level-terrorism

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Actually it does make sense, please see above.

 

I guess there were no republicans in the senate when the vote was taken.

 

Any illegal alien who doesn't want to be deported has an interest in eluding law enforcement.

 

Every rime a GOP representative or any right wing supporter moans and groans about terrorism, borders and keeping the USA safe, these facts should be flung in their face.

 

And many, if not most, don't live here. Yet there is this:

While the bill remained a nonstarter, more than 2,000 suspects on the FBI’s Terrorist Watchlist bought weapons in the U.S. over the last 11 years, according to the federal Government Accountability Office.

I do know that you need a special license to buy full auto weapons (or at least you used to), so presumably, anyone with such a license could own a full automatic AK-47. How difficult is it to convert a semi-auto to a full auto? I have no idea, nor do I know the availability of the parts and pieces necessary to do so. Doesn't matter one way or another. Even with a semi-auto, you can squeeze off an awful lot of rounds in a very short period of time, making such a weapon almost as bad as a full auto. Maybe even better because I'll hazard a guess that it's easier to control a semi-auto than a full auto when firing.

However you want to define it, my guess is that everyone on that list was put there because some rather serious law enforcement people believed they were related to terrorism, acts of terrorism and/or accessories to terrorist acts. Either that or they wanted to be and made known their intentions.

So, why would the NRA block regulations that would disallow the sale of weapons to terrorists or suspected terrorists?

 

Did you read what you posted? I wonder:

So who can be placed on the list?

•US and foreign nationals who have previously engaged in terrorism.

•Anyone government agencies "reasonably suspect" to be a terrorist. The suspicion needs to be based on gathered intelligence, "mere hunches and guesses are not sufficient" to watchlist someone, the report states.

•Entire "categories" of people can be placed on the list if a terror threat is imminent.

•Someone who has already been acquitted of a terrorism crime by the courts can still be watchlisted.

•People who have died often remain on the watchlist in case their identities are stolen by other potential terrorists.

•The document contains "loopholes" whereby a suspected terrorist's family, friends and acquaintances can also be placed on the list.

Nobody is going to jail if their name makes the list; they can even buy guns today. However, if they want to fly, they might have some problems. So, why would you, or anyone else support granting them free rein to buy any weapon of their choice, or fly into and out of this country? Do you see any problems there?

 

Anyway, the FBI is informed whenever a NICS check is done on a Terrorist Watch list suspect. If anything, not telling them this, gives the FBI a tactical advantage, allowing them to start following the watchlist suspect.
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-05-127

It's not like the terrorists are being ignored. The thing is, and I'm surprised at liberals on this subject, we have due process rights. In order to be stripped of any right (including the right to own guns) an action involving due process (which has to include the ability to defend yourself legally). Do you really want to start losing civil rights based on a list produced by the government with no protections for the innocent?

Of course you do. It's hard to convert most civilian semi-autos to full auto without specialized parts. Regardless, the terrorists aren't wasting time on semi-autos.



However you want to define it, my guess is that everyone on that list was put there because some rather serious law enforcement people believed they were related to terrorism, acts of terrorism and/or accessories to terrorist acts. Either that or they wanted to be and made known their intentions.

So, why would the NRA block regulations that would disallow the sale of weapons to terrorists or suspected terrorists?[/QUOTE]

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It's called basic civil rights. I don't want anybody to lose any rights based on an arbitrary list. Also, as I post in another reply, the FBI is informed whenever one of these watched folks buys a gun using the NICS check. If anything, that's better than refusing them right out. It gives the FBI the chance to find out who they are.

 

Yes, I can definitely see your point, but someone who is still not allowed on a commercial flight, is now fully armed. I believe that would be the point of amending the law.

If that's a worry, then add language to the law making it easier for anyone denied a gun purchase for that reason, would be entitled to an immediate hearing (like within 30 days).

Not if they can obtain full autos here, I see no reason for them to.

That list is a bit more than "arbitrary"; it's not like those names were pulled out of thin air. They were put there for a reason, as noted. True, they haven't been in court, but they simply may not have been available to go to court. All things considered, I'll take a chance that someone's nose might be bent out of shape a little, rather than arming a terrorist or sympathizer.

 

They are just denied their civil and constitutional rights without due process under the law. Why do you support such?

You are aware that if a known or suspected terrorist has the same name as you, you yourself are on any number of secret government watch lists, correct? Social security numbers and other methods of identification are not used in identifying a suspect, only their name. As was pointed out, the late senator Ted Kennedy was on the no fly list. Are we to assume that the senator posed some risk to national security that made him unfit to fly, but not unfit to hold his senatorial position?

 

Delayed, not denied, until the confusion is cleared up. Also beats the daylights out of the alternative, which I previously mentioned.

Well, if your name is the Middle East equivalent of John Smith, and John Smith is on the watch list, you got a real problem. There's no denying that. I also have some knowledge of how that might feel, since some years ago, my name and that of the manager of a large electronics manufacturer here were the same. We were about the same age, and supposedly resembled one another, but he was absolutely no relation. One day, there was an announcement in the local paper that they were closing the plant, with the loss of hundreds of jobs, and moving it to Mexico. Not long after that, I started to get some phone calls that, shall we say, were not exactly nice. OK, some death threats. Started to screen all calls, and also changed my message that I was NOT the manager, that I worked for another company, and that he had an unlisted number. I also called the factory and told him what had happened. Said he understood because I wouldn't believe some of the hate mail he got. I guess the word got out because the calls did stop after a short period of time.

 

Terrorism isnt limited to "Middle eastern" names or Ted Kennedy would not have been on the no fly list.


False positives and other controversial cases

False positives and abuses that have been in the news include:

Numerous children (including many under the age of five, and some under the age of one) have generated false positives.[33][34][35]
Daniel Brown, a United States Marine returning from Iraq, was prevented from boarding a flight home in April 2006 because his name matched one on the No Fly List.[36]
David Fathi, an attorney for the ACLU of Iranian descent and a plaintiff in an ACLU lawsuit.[37]
Asif Iqbal, a management consultant and legal resident of the United States born in Pakistan, plans to sue the U.S. government because he is regularly detained when he tries to fly, because he has the same name as a former Guantanamo detainee.[11][38] Iqbal's work requires a lot of travel, and, even though the Guantanamo detainee has been released, his name remains on the No Fly List, and Iqbal the software consultant experiences frequent, unpredictable delays and missed flights.[39] He is pushing for a photo ID and birthdate matching system, in addition to the current system of checking names.[40]
Robert J. Johnson, a surgeon and a former lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, was told in 2006 that he was on the list, although he had had no problem in flying the month before. Johnson was running as a Democrat against U.S. Representative John McHugh, a Republican. Johnson wondered whether he was on the list because of his opposition to the Iraq War. He stated, "This could just be a government screw-up, but I don't know, and they won't tell me."[41] Later, a 60 Minutes report brought together 12 men named Robert Johnson, all of whom had experienced problems in airports with being pulled aside and interrogated. The report suggested that the individual whose name was intended to be on the list was most likely the Robert Johnson who had been convicted of plotting to bomb a movie theater and a Hindu temple in Toronto.[14]
In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports. He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list. Kennedy said he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was added to the list because it was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist. There are an estimated 7,000 American men whose legal names correspond to "T Kennedy". (Senator Kennedy, whose first name was Edward and for whom "Ted" was only a nickname, would not have been one of them.) Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens": "How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"[42] Former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani pointed to this incident as an example for the necessity to "rethink aviation security" in an essay on homeland security published while he was seeking the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential election.[43]
U.S. Representative, former Freedom Rider, and Chairman of SNCC John Lewis (politician) (D-GA) has been stopped many times.[44]
Canadian journalist Patrick Martin has been frequently interrogated while traveling, because of a suspicious individual, believed to be a former Provisional Irish Republican Army bomb-maker, with the same name.[45][46]
Walter F. Murphy, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton, reported that the following exchange took place at Newark on 1 March 2007, where he was denied a boarding pass "because I [Professor Murphy] was on the Terrorist Watch list." The airline employee asked, "Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that." "I explained," said professor Murphy, "that I had not so marched but had, in September 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the constitution." To which the airline employee responded, "That'll do it."[47]
David Nelson, the actor best known for his role on The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, is among various persons named David Nelson who have been stopped at airports because their name apparently appears on the list.[48][49]
Jesselyn Radack, a former United States Department of Justice ethics adviser who argued that John Walker Lindh was entitled to an attorney, was placed on the No Fly List as part of what she [50] believes to be a reprisal for her whistle-blowing.
In September 2004, former pop singer Cat Stevens (who converted to Islam and changed his name to "Yusuf Islam" in 197 was denied entry into the U.S. after his name was found on the list.[51]
In February 2006, U.S. Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) stated in a committee hearing that his wife Catherine had been subjected to questioning at an airport as to whether she was Cat Stevens due to the similarity of their names.[48][52]
U.S. Representative Don Young (R-AK), the third-most senior Republican in the House, was flagged in 2004 after he was mistaken for a "Donald Lee Young".[53]
Some members of the Federal Air Marshal Service have been denied boarding on flights that they were assigned to protect because their names matched those of persons on the no-fly list.[54]
Until July 2008, Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress were on the list, something that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called "rather embarrassing".[55] On July 5, 2008, the U.S. removed Mandela and the ANC from the list.[56][dead link][disputed – discuss]
In August 2008, CNN reported that an airline captain and retired brigadier general for the United States Air Force has had numerous encounters with security officials when attempting to pilot his own plane.[57]
After frequent harassment at airport terminals, a Canadian businessman changed his name to avoid being delayed every time he took a flight.[58]
In October 2008, the Washington Post reported that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases, with labels indicating that they were terror suspects. The protest groups were also entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed in the databases because of a surveillance operation that targeted opponents of the death penalty and the Iraq war.[59]
In April 2009, TSA refused to allow an Air France flight from Paris to Mexico to cross U.S. airspace because it was carrying Colombian journalist Hernando Calvo Ospina. Air France did not send the passenger manifest to the US authorities; they did however send it to Mexico who forwarded it to the US.[2]
Bollywood actor Shah Rukh Khan was held for extensive questioning by US Immigration and Customs officials in August 2009, because as he reported, "his name came up on a computer alert list." Customs officials claimed he "was questioned as part of a routine process that took 66 minutes." Khan was visiting the United States to promote his film My Name Is Khan, which concerns racial profiling of Muslims in the United States.[60]
In June 2010, The New York Times reported Yahya Wehelie, a 26-year-old Muslim-American man was being prevented from returning to the United States, and trapped in Cairo. Despite Wehelie's offer to FBI agents to allow them to accompany him in the plane, while shackled, he was not permitted to return. The ACLU has argued that this constitutes banishment.[61]
A U.S. citizen, stranded in Colombia after being placed on the no-fly list as a result of having studied in Yemen, sought to re-enter the U.S. through Mexico but was returned to Colombia by Mexican authorities.[61]
Michael Migliore, a 23-year-old Muslim convert and dual citizen of the United States and Italy, was detained in the United Kingdom after traveling there from the U.S. by train and then cruise ship because he was not permitted to fly. He said that he believes he was placed on the no-fly list because he refused to answer questions about a 2010 Portland car bomb plot without his lawyer present.[62] He was released eight or ten hours later, but authorities confiscated his electronic media items including a cell phone and media player.[63]
Abe Mashal, a 31-year-old Muslim and United States Marine Veteran, found himself on the No Fly List in April 2010 while attempting to board a plane out of Midway Airport. He was questioned by the TSA, FBI and Chicago Police at the airport and was told they had no clue why he was on the No Fly List. Once he arrived at home that day two other FBI agents came to his home and used a Do Not Fly question-and-answer sheet to question him. They informed him they had no idea why he was on the No Fly List. In June 2010 those same two FBI agents summoned Mashal to a local hotel and invited him to a private room. They told him that he was in no trouble and the reason he ended up on the No Fly List was because of possibly sending emails to an American imam they may have been monitoring. They then informed him that if he would go undercover at various local mosques, they could get him off the No Fly List immediately and he would be compensated for such actions. Mashal refused to answer any additional questions without a lawyer present and was told to leave the hotel. Mashal then contacted the ACLU and is now being represented in a class-action lawsuit filed against the TSA, FBI and DHS concerning the legality of the No Fly List and how people end up on it. Mashal feels as if he was blackmailed into becoming an informant by being placed on the No Fly List. Mashal has since appeared on ABC, NBC, PBS and Al Jazeera concerning his inclusion on the No Fly List. He has also written a book about his experience titled "No Spy No Fly." [64]
In November 2002 Salon reported that the No-Fly program seemed "to be netting mostly priests, elderly nuns, Green Party campaign operatives, left-wing journalists, right-wing activists and people affiliated with Arab or Arab-American groups." Art dealer Doug Stuber, who ran Ralph Nader’s Green Party presidential campaign in North Carolina in 2000, was prevented from flying to Europe on business in October 2002. He was repeatedly pulled out of line, held for questioning until his flight left, then told falsely he could take a later flight or depart from a different airport. Barbara Olshansky, then Assistant Legal Director for the Center for Constitutional Rights, noted that she and several of her colleagues received special attention on numerous occasions. On at least one occasion, she was ordered to pull her trousers down in view of other passengers.[65]
In 2003, Jordanian academic and political activist (and 15-year U.S. resident) Sabri Samirah was denied re-entry into the U.S. on unspecified "national security risk" grounds. This decision was eventually overturned in federal court and Samirah returned in 2014.[66][67]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List


Facts something you dont get from the wacko bird Progressive sites.

Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens": "How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"

Good luck getting things "cleared up" if your name is on one of these lists.