An intellectual Europeans view of the 50 year Israeli occupation of the West bank

Subject: Fw: Jerusalem in Photos from 1862: No mosques, no Palestinians – only ghost towns of massacred Christian areas






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http://cjhsla.org/2015/10/29/jerusa...nly-ghost-towns-of-massacred-christian-areas/

This is the proof of the pudding in 1862 ... there were no Mosques and no so called <Palestinians>//// FYI as a matter of FACT the word Palestinian was coined in 1964 at the behest and coordination between Arafat and Nasser...

If anyone denies that... let them come with a better illustration than mine (above). I urge everyone to go through the presentation before responding.
,...

 

How could I have forgotten about you?!!
A big hug and squeeeeze...



You know, Snowdon and Manning are also good Americans. Plus all the soldiers who took pictures of the torturing and posted them on the Internet.

 

"KOOK SITE ALERT"

I did more than

I checked out your hilarious Kook "source" which is &#8220;CHILDREN OF JEWISH HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS&#8221; which connects us to an even funnier picture of a Jew asleep standing up holding an M 4 and a pudgy, old pugilist having a VERY "Bad Hair Day" at:

&#8220;Don&#8217;t Mess with Us&#8221;
http://jewscanshoot.com/2016/08/15/dont-mess-with-us/

Since the Holocaust® Theme Parks have proven to be masters at altering photos, paintings & documents, I suspect that their off-spring are at least as masterful at doing the same.

I urge every one to look at the the OTHER Funny-Photo at (below) for a good laugh.

&#8220;Don&#8217;t Mess with Us&#8221;
http://jewscanshoot.com/2016/08/15/dont-mess-with-us/

 

You have lightened my heart tremendously! All night and morning I worried about what I had said and done... hurting, insulting a dear friend. Already I planned and started formulating my heartfelt apology. I waited some extra time before coming back to this thread, dreading to face my verdict of condemnation and cold shoulder treatment. --- What a relief! No harsh words or the silent treatment. Instead kindness, forgiveness and a reminder from my "Private" friend that he is also an American!! Hallelujah, my heart sings again!
Thank you both, Grau and Private Citizen.

 

If Snowdon actually releases something we didn't already know then I could agree with that comment. As far as I know he just confirmed that the government is spying on all Americans via cell phone, PC, and tablet camera's and microphones and social website's. I have not really kept tabs on him so maybe that has changed. If so I would be interested in reading it. Some people believe it was a sham so the government could justify making more unconstitutional laws.

 

Snowdon has only access to the electronic spying activities of the US, he has not revealed any military or CFR secrets. But we get the picture: The US brass is mighty scared and doesn't mind stooping to the level of a common hoodlum to find out any and all little secrets that could help them to detect the big plot that could wipe them out... like Angela Merkel might have something going on with Putin or Netanyahu, her best friend...

U.S. President Barack Obama, right, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel are seated together at a G7 dinner in Brussels, on June 4. Their relationship has been tense since reports revealed that the NSA tapped Merkel's phone.

Imagine, how degrading this kind of treatment is for Mrs. Merkel.

Anyway, here is a website with the ten important revealations...
http://mashable.com/2014/06/05/edward-snowden-revelations/#zY56EXARuiq3

 

The history of the period since 1967 (and specifically the avoidance of U.N. Resolution 242) should be more than enough to answer your question, especially when combined with a knowledge of the >40 U.S. vetoes of U.N. resolutions critical of Israel. Under such a combination what is your own conclusion?

Absolutely correct !!!!

Now, to take that to its logical conclusion, given the studious non-implementation of U.N. 242 based on the Israeli claim that (not provided for in 242) Hamas and others "must first recognise Israel as a Jewish state", you have just eloquently proven that that would mean the recognition of a geographical entity (that Is what a State is) that is undefined, because no-one can show what its borders (with the West Bank) are. Anyone would be daft to make that recognition because it would provide the Zionists with a blank cheque to realise their dream of controlling and owning ALL of the West Bank. So the Israelis, with U.S. support and their mutual precondition for peace (recognition), have created a self-fullfilling perpetuation of the non implementation of 242 and hence of the impossibility of reaching peace. The Arabs have made many peace offers (starting in 1971 - all opening the door to negotiation) based on 242 and the 1967 borders but every single one has been rejected by both Israel and the U.S.A.

I trust that answers your question regarding my belief that the Canadian lacks a sense of reality.

 

I am happy to debate any of my red comments above in a separate thread. Please create them and 'ping' me.

 

Correct. That was recognised by both parties and by Clinton, and was the reason that the Wye River Memorandum became necessary.
See the record of a senior Israeli negotiator and Israel's ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs confirming this here:
https://www.amazon.com/Scars-War-Wounds-Peace-Israeli-Arab/dp/0195325427

 

I know.
But as you are well aware, that is not a border.
So I have to repeat - "What is this geographical entity called Israel that the Arabs (sensu lato) are meant to recognise?" as a precondition demanded by both Israel and by the U.S.?

Time to face the ridiculous nature of this demand. I agree with Jonsa's position that such preconditions should be wiped off the agenda. Good for him on that part at least.

 

1. Not a flawed generalization. Israel, despite the road taken to establish itself as a nation, is in fact recognized as a sovereign nation by the ROW and UN. Self defense is a national right. If you wish to debate if preemption is not self defense, that is something entirely separate.

2. Sorry, according to the Israeli Supreme Court, the WB and Golan are under belligerent military occupation. That is a fact.

4. Of course its true. We both know the history of arab recalcitrance. Its only been in the past thirty or so years that some arab nations were willing to negotiate, but then after getting their arses handed to them more often than not, that is understandable. After all it was a seconary objective for the butt whippings in the first place.

5. Its not meaningless that neither side has bargained in good faith for peace. In fact it is ENTIRELY relevant to the clustermuck and its perpetuation.

6. No, its not a flawed generalization, its an accurate generalization, meaning that Palestinian leadership has proven itself to be corrupt and its record of ineptness vs its record for results is in the public record.

7. No, again this fact is ENTIRELY relevant to the situation. If palestinians weren't considered special refugees with multi-generational status, then the few million arabs of palestinian origin would have become citizens of the arab country they actual were born and resided in their entire lives. At least two arab civil wars might have been avoided.


Yes, peace does seem to be a pipedream, lacking any sense of the reality of the situtation.

 

My question was if you disagree with the writer of the article tha HBendor provide in this thread. And I still waiting for your answer.

What is my conclusion regarding the West Bank? Well if we will respect and follow the international law, then the West Bank belongs to the Jews, as it was promised to them, like the rest of the Land of Israel (excluding Trans-Jordan), in the docment of the Mandate that it's rights are been protected by the international law, which the countries of the world that are part of the UN is binding to respect and fulfill.


BTW- Resolution 242 was ben fulfilled by Israel when they withdraw from territories they took control of in the Six Days War, as the language of the reslution shows us.

Resolution 242 has nothing to do with Hamas nor the Fatah. Resolution 242 is regarding on the forces that fought in the Six Days War, and since Hamas and the Fatah was not part of this war, then the Resolution is not relecent to them.

And when the US and Israel offered the Arabs alot of peace offers, that one of them were getting 97% of the West Bank, and the rest 3% they will recieve from territories that will be transferred to them from Israel and they refused to that one as well.

 

Your 'fact' number 1 (seriously, we should start new threads, as I suggested) - the rest will follow individually:

As I wrote - it is a "A flawed generalisation", because it avoids all of the devils that hide in the details.

Israel seized independence in defiance of the Covenant of the League of Nations, of the wording of the Mandate for Palestine and of the Charter of the United Nations. It also defied (and continues to) the very resolution that it says gave it the right to claim independence, namely UNGA 181, the most obvious violation (amongst a host of others) being the obstruction of the 'internationalisation of Jerusalem'. The U.S.A. lead the charge to sanction this independence, notwithstanding this host of Israeli illegalities.

Or do you agree that none of that matters because UNGA 181 was stillborn. It was never implemented by Britain, and nowhere was Israel granted the right of self-implementation. But, if you do, then it means that the invoking of '181' by the Israeli founding fathers as justification for unilateral declaration of independence is unfounded. This Israeli reliance on (a deceased) '181' is confirmed in Israel's letter of application for U.N. membership on 29 November 1948. Indeed the devil is in the detail; Israel needs '181' for legitimacy, but by not complying with most of the resolution's demands, the legality of her independence is sunk by this conflict. Hence the critical need to emphasise Israel's admittance into the United Nations, so as to sanitise the highly dubious '181' legacy and also to dilute the deliberate obfuscation of international law by the U.S.A. in forcing '181' through, in violation of Clause 26 of the Mandate for Palestine.

So now that '181' has been cremated the Zionists are in a pickle. They might wish to claim that "might is right" and that "the last one standing" takes the prize, so land-grabbibg is perfectly acceptable, except that this flies in the face of a myriad of international laws dating back to 1908. So all that is left is to sanitise this sordid leaky past by claiming that "the world accepted Israel as being legitimate when it approved her entry as a sovereign state into the U.N. So let us put the loupe on that application.

Israel was admitted to the U.N., as you so correctly observed, but this was allowed under VERY specific conditions, with which that country has failed to comply to this day. Once again this was 'tolerated' because of U.S.A. intervention on Israel's behalf in full violation of international law (U.N. Charter). On 30 November 1948 Moshe Shertok committed Israel as follows "the State of Israel hereby unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them". It never did, because it never complied with the terms of its U.N. membership.

I have to go now. ,The boss is calling. I will next examine what Israel 'unreservedly' undertook to comply with, and then we can test if it did. Because if it didn't then that means that ........ (to be continued and also your other 'factual' items)

 

Recognition in an entity called Israel - Hamas and friends call it Zionist entity for a reason, and recognition in the borders we will establish throu negotiation with the PA.

 

Didnt see anything in your link that suggests Oslo agreements are no longer in affect, if so than there are no Area's A B or C. that's not reality.

 

Ben-Ami treats it in detail in Capter 9 - "Oslo: The glory and the Agony"

Firstly how Arafat sunk the Oslo accords:

Secondly, how the Israelis sunk Oslo:

Allow me to translate this diplomat-speak: “After having signed the Oslo II agreement, Israel immediately violated it with an aggressive campaign of evictions, land grab and settlement building”. Let us examine further:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...&feature=iv&src_vid=eeT_KLuCdug&v=Cl60X_jOsR0
See 3min 53 sec

Ben-Ami on the death of Oslo:

Gilos, cherry-picking is always obvious if one is familiar with the ‘devil in the details’. You want Oslo’s sectors A, B and C to live on, but Zionists don’t want the cessation of settlement building to be implemented, they don’t want the PLO’s recognition of Israel to be remembered, they don’t want Rabin’s commitment to abandon its negation of Palestinian claims to national sovereignty to be honoured. And they were correct, because the Oslo accords were in essence a series of interim agreements. But so were the interim A-B-C divisions. How can anyone seriously believe that some aspects of Oslo and valid but the remainder is not?

Consequence: When this cherry-picking failure of Oslo and Taba became evident to the Palestinians, the Second Intifada broke out. Of course, Faux News never mentions this cause-and-effect.

 

Nothing of that means Oslo agreements are canceled, Oslo accords that were supposed to lead us to an Indipendant Palestinian state aside Israel were HALTED, I dont dispute that but the ones signed with Rabin gov are in effect till this day - do you dispute that ??
If you want to discuss why they were halted I can give you reasons, but none was canceled.

We are all Zionists, Zionists divide politicly since before Israel declared indipendance, the Arab narrative of condeming all Zionists is part of the propaganda against Israel but if you want to talk to me eye to eye you'd do well to be accurate.

Right wingers that want most if not all WB are against Oslo, they wish Israel wouldnt have signed it, but we did and the agreements are holding, Area A and B are outside Israel power, area C is the part to be handed in part to the new Palesinian state, none of that changed.

Let's discuss this cherry picking because you dropped a little something called Hamas from this equation, when Rabin and Arafat signed Oslo Hamas was aginst it, they launched attacks several times a week for months till we the left wingers that supported Oslo (ofc the right wingers didnt) - could;nt resist the demand to stop them because obviously Arafart couldn't or wouldnt control his own ppl ! so what's there to talk about ? that's when the Left wing lost support of the ppl and the Right wing that was against it all along gained power and won the elections. no rich curropt Jew was behind this but Hamas terror attacks that dropped the floor from the process.

And so what we signed and agreed is in affect, the rest of what's supposed to come has alot do to with the politics of the Palestinians, right now if Im not mistaken we have a cease fire for 10-20 years from Hamas in return for 67 blines and 10 Million Arabs to enetr Israel ? something like that ? that's not serious peace offer coming from at least half the Palestinians rep. by Hamas.

 

So as to avoid hijacking of this thread, I started a new one on the topic of Israels membership approval by the U.N. as confirmation that Israel is a legitimately formed nation - http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=473678&p=1066592747#post1066592747

 

You seem to be of the view that the accord signed by Rabin (Oslo I) is still in force today, but that the Oslo II discussions (Wye River) are dead and dusted. Did I understand that correctly? If so, interesting, and I will give attention to this nuance. Please confirm.

Many thanks, KK

 

FACTS ON THE GROUND. I do not debate what happened in 1948, I merely state that in 2016 Israel is considered a sovereign nation by the UN despite 31 members not doing so.

Notice any commonalities?

 

You have proven by your continuous sarcastic de-legitimization of Israel together with the red color that you use that everything is OK above, when ALL your narrative is the flawed one at best....

Fact one, Israel is here to stay, has been RECONSTITUTED and would be here forever... Get used to it.
Fact two, JUDEA and SAMARIA are part and parcel of Israel. (a) Israel and Jordan have signed a Peace agreement don't you know? (b) The Golan was part and parcel of the Mandate before the unilateral decision of the Brits to cut it off and hand it over to the Mandatory of the Levant...
Fact three, historically this is the <Land of Israel> and no amount of <sabotaging> techniques you use will embellish your version of history.
Fact four, the Arab people, those that are most vociferous, have taken a lead from people writing here historical NONSENSE with no shame.
Fact Five, Israel and Egypt, and Israel and Jordan have both signed a Peace Agreement duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Fact six, we do not care if the so called Arab leaders are corrupt... you want to stick this one also to Israel? Abu Mazen is on his way out friend!
Fact seven, the fatal flaw in your generalization is that you believe in what you want to believe, when in reality it is a pipe dream!

Watch this video and be more up to date.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ReF4UUa4E

 

Actually Oslo B divided the WB to area A B and C, gave control to the PA over Pal cities and 450 villages, Israel gave 10,000 guns to form the Pal police, these are all in effect.

Edit : but it wasnt fulfilled till the end and established a Pal sate - if that's what you meant.