Do you believe in a living wage?

$7.25/hour works just fine in Mayberry RFD and does not work in San Francisco, CA. You cannot have 100 different federal MW's so the MW must be the one that works in the lowest standard of living areas...and IMO $7.25/hour works great in these areas. The simple fact that today we probably have a 100 different MW's across the country is proof that MW at the federal level cannot be a solution for all Americans.

Regarding automation, we have known about this for more than a century. Any idiot paying attention could watch over the decades that as labor and other factors, including technology, became issues this was going to force continued automation. Typically increased automation equals decreased jobs. And this process remains in place today! And meanwhile in parallel population continues to grow begging for more and more jobs.

Lastly, and I hate to stereotype, but in our everyday lives how often do we run across an employee who is smart, energetic, communicative, a problem solver...my answer is almost never! The quality of our workers today needs review! The education of Americans needs review. In my past work life I had the pleasure of working with people from many different nations and I can honestly say it was rare to come across a slacker...

 

Well...first...I'm a business owner so this is not my opinion! We have the correct amount of employees and compensation to satisfy demand and have a viable business. So why would I hire more people if I don't need them? Sure I can create some make-work jobs and pay for it out of my profits or personal income solely to hire more people but again why would I do this? The same applies to the government. A government BTW which is already spending $500 billion per year more than they have tax revenues. Sure the US infrastructure is crumbling but it should not be repaired with more debt money...it should be funded by taxation. If you want 8 million government employees instead of the current 4 million then increase taxation to pay for it. If Americans refuse to pay higher taxes then it cannot be done...

 

First, your exaggerations cannot be argued by me and as long as you are focusing on a CEO who earns $30 million you are not functioning in reality. There are only 16 CEO's who have total compensation over $30 million and much of this is stock options...the actual cash they get from the company is much less!

Yeah...back in the good old days before government welfare only a few people chose a life of being a hobo or bum. Back in those days workers lived within their means , cash only, no debt, used bartering, and understood work equals food and shelter.

Lastly, I've worked since I was 15 years old, worked and paid by way through college, bought a house after I saved the 20% downpayment and the mortgage payment did not exceed 25% of my income. I worked very hard to help assure my upward mobility. NOTHING was given to me! If I didn't work hard I would be fired! If I did not pay my way my choice was friends and family or being an embarrassment of being a bum...I could not expect anything from the government. This is what is missing today...not silly living wages...

 

Having a variety of state regulations does not invalidate the need for a federal regulation, and that has applied to many rights and federal court cases in the past. But as long as we know that your view is based upon the opinion of 7.25, I can agree with the rest of it. It is mine and others opinions that an increase would be beneficial for aggregate consumption and those that thru misfortune or otherwise must rely on a minimum wage to avoid insolvency.

The population will grow; how should we address it? Use China's play of forced IUDs (which they recently walked back)?

And yes education is foundational. As jobs become fewer, they will require more education.

 

If all of those foreign workers are so great why are their countries such dumps? I wonder why they don't stay there and make their own countries into paradises on Earth with their hard work?

 

Of course I don't know and either do you? I have faith in the US and capitalism that it will right itself and I have patience to allow this to happen. If I have to suffer some so be it.

Sure some people suffered during the depression but those who had a sustainable life did not...this should be a clue how people design their lives today.

IMO a major problem with the USA today is how many people and businesses cannot tolerate economic downturns.

Who will fund your WPA?

 

My history sounds exactly like yours.

However, my kids absolutely could not do that.

Times have changed. You can't drag our your college years budget, apply an inflation factor, and hand it to a kid of today - it just doesn't work.

 

You can talk about a paradigm shift, but people don't change like that. Its not like on Star Trek where there is no money and people work hard just because its their desire or duty. Its not like communism which gives everyone a common living but wants people to work according to their skills just for the good of the community.

Why do you think the USA became so prosperous? Because people were rewarded for their work and sacrifice and risk. Take away the reward, and you take away the will to do the hard work and make the sacrifices.

The bottom line is that if you give everyone a guaranteed standard of living (and make no mistake about it, that's where this minimum living wage is going) then a lot of people will do the minimum required to meet their basic needs.

 

Burger flipping is not a dead end, it is a stepping stone to better jobs. Its the job where first time workers experience the real world of work in which they must answer to a boss, meet standards, have some level of responsibility, receive a paycheck, and pay taxes.

Very, very few people stay at min wage.

And you are correct, it is about a "living wage", and it will not end with a min wage. Its a political scam.

 

You started with an actual argument (questionable, but still a real argument) and then you trashed it all by claiming the Fed was the ace in the hole to keep the economy running. The Fed has failed to prevent or even anticipate every major financial disaster in the past 50 years.

 

I concur.

Twenty or thirty years from now no more over the road truck drivers. But there are tens of millions of other jobs that are dependent on truck drivers.

We need to blow up Googles HQ's.

 

It is idle per the fact its not being spent rolling through the economy. As some economists think.
I have saved, my entire life.

 

I 100% understand and have empathy for those with lower incomes. However, I also don't believe it is the responsibility of industry to provide everyone with a so-called living wage...or even minimum wage. Americans and politics cries about jobs leaving the US, about automation, yet in parallel these same people are demanding higher and higher compensation...all for the same amount of productivity. This is obviously illogical! Americans in rural areas elected Trump with his false promises about bringing middle class paying jobs to their areas, however, these same Americans are ill-prepared for employment in high-tech and other professions so why would a company invest $100 million to build a facility in Mayberry RFD? Since nothing is free imposing higher costs on business is not a positive move.

Why can't society better educate Americans? Why can't society provide free vocational training and certification? Why can't society provide free community college education? Why can't society help those with an entrepreneurial spirit to start small businesses? IMO society does little to nothing for these people then demands that industry solve all the problems?! Sorry but this will not work...

 

My view is not based on $7.25/hour...my personal view is no MW.

If you wish to increase MW by $.50 every two years until you reach $12 or $15/hour or whatever number you need, doing this very gradually, it is more easily absorbed into the economy.

However, since nothing is free all of this additional wage must be made up somewhere and likely in higher consumer prices.

IMO when you reach $15/hour in several years you will find everyone earning MW will have the identical problems as today and government will still be handing out welfare likes it's water...

 

Not sure which nations you are talking about being dumps?? For every nation you can name I'll give you a location in the USA which is also a dump.

Are you talking about the million green card foreign workers working in high-tech?

Are you talking about Mexicans which are only 50% of the illegals?

I think the reason 'some' foreigners migrate to the USA is because they want more in life than they can obtain in their home nations. I think at an individual level this should be applauded. Does it cause some problems for the USA...well yes and no. IMO there is far more good than bad with illegal and legal immigrants in the USA.

Lastly, I know FIRST HAND that so-called Americans will not do the work that many of the illegals and green card workers are doing. Use some logic; if Americans did these jobs there would be nothing for the legal and illegal immigrants! This is a novel idea...logic that is...if Americans simply wanted to take those jobs Americans would do so...but they won't...

 

Most people into their seventh decade or so can share my history...it's not rocket science...work hard and make good decisions and things will be okay.

It took me seven years to complete my college studies because I had to work part-time and pay my way. I also attended community college for the first two years. Never once did I feel like I was on easy street...I lived slow and low and lean and mean and it wasn't that much fun. IMO kids today can take a similar path if they desire.

BTW; instant gratification is one of the major problems in the US today...

 

Money invested is certainly helping the economy. Money in savings accounts and bonds is allowing money to be loaned into society which also energizes the economy.

Lastly, if all lower wage workers suddenly found an extra $100 a month in their pay, we can guess that most all of it will be spent on imports. How many jobs does buying imports create?

 

I did not argue the Fed was necessary at all, my argument stemmed from the very minimal fact that a stated policy of the Fed is to deliberately maintain a low rate of inflation. Whether the Fed is necessary is a different talking point, unless you want to include it as part of a MW discussion.

In any case, I'm glad you find the argument tenable at least, so I'd love to hear your response.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, with treasury-buying like China does, they loan the money right back to counteract the trade imbalance so that capital doesn't fly from the US and devalue the dollar. Not that that excuses anything, but that is, at the minimum, what would and still does happen. If there were no treasury or currency manipulation, China would have evened out its trade imbalance a long time ago, but they want to keep their people employed, even if their currency is pennies to the dollar.

Should we exchange the wages in America for Chinese standard wages for the sake of jobs?

 

Not a big deal with something that is optional--i.e. going out to eat, but if this happened across the economy, and all prices raised by 10%, it would make a difference. It would basically be like 10% inflation.

 

I had to take more time, too. I came close to being required to take time out to shoot folks in Vietnam. I took all kinds of weird jobs, such as driving cab all night, when there were almost no fares, but I got some pay for sitting in the car at a downtown cab stand and studying.

But, my kids who graduated about 8 years back would have had a far harder time doing that. Earning college sized dollars as a high school educated girl just isn't going to happen within a reasonable time frame. Remember that colleges don't give you forever to graduate - credit hours age out. And, science programs usually require taking courses in sequence along with related requirements.

 

I don't think we should 'force' anything! I hate meddling by government in the private sector. It's okay to have common-sense regulations, and to apply taxation, and to make sure trade deals are reasonably win-win, but with the living wage issue, don't demand that industry pay certain wages...

 

I received a 4Y classification or else I would have been on my way to Canada.

I actually had a couple of steady and good jobs so it wasn't too bad.

I know things cost more today relatively speaking but if I were young again I would do everything I could to avoid some of the student debt numbers I'm hearing. I would use community college, I would work part-time, I would allow 5-6 years to complete. I have little sympathy for those with $100K student loans in liberal arts or other curriculums, full knowing their job potential and compensation would never be enough to pay down or pay off their student loans and allow a reasonable quality of life...

 

So, since you couldn't address the reality that you're not entitled to a specific Standard of Living or Life-Style, you resort to name-calling.

I am a Realist and a Conservative who leans toward the extreme far Right.

Note that all of the following are equally productive:

1. Fat Union Fred gets paid to $35/hour to operate a Japanese-made Nissei plastic-injection molding machine producing 12 plastic kitchen utensils per hour.
3. Vlad in Romania gets paid $1.40/hour to operate a Japanese-made Nissei plastic-injection molding machine producing 12 plastic kitchen utensils per hour.
5. Batalog the Filipino gets paid $0.60/hour to operate a Japanese-made Nissei plastic-injection molding machine producing 12 plastic kitchen utensils per hour.
7. Rajiv in India gets paid $0.28/hour to operate a Japanese-made Nissei plastic-injection molding machine producing 12 plastic kitchen utensils per hour.
9. Ndela in Sierra Leone gets paid $0.03/hour to operate a Japanese-made Nissei plastic-injection molding machine producing 12 plastic kitchen utensils per hour.

Who do you think is going to win out in the end? In the coming decades, it will become more difficult for the US to compete globally, not easier. As your wages/salaries stagnate, the global foot-prints for the 500 Million-strong Chinese Middle Class, the 300 Million-strong Indian Middle Class and the future 300 Million sub-Saharan Middle Class are going to be competing for global resources, driving the prices of goods and services higher and higher.

Neither Minimum Wages, nor "living wages" nor Universal Basic Income will save you.

Just accept that the American Dream really is a dream for now and the foreseeable Future and start learning how to do less with less.

 

You can't ignore that intervention is required to manage externalities. Markets need time and elasticity to handle things, neither of which are guaranteed.

Especially with globalism, when you consider that other governments get a vote in how the free market is run!

If China wants to keep buying our currency and treasuries in the free market to artificially prop the dollar against the Yuan, don't we need to at least consider that government is needed to answer it?

 

Only 11%.....gosh, I feel so much better now.

The increase of 11% then necessitates an additional increase in the minimum wage, causing more Inflation and resulting in cries to increase the minimum wage further still.

I hope you're not one of those who expects the minimum wage to be pegged to Inflation. The purpose of Inflation in part is to protect goods and services from being over-consumed or depleted.

To which economy are you referring?

There are more than 1,000 Labor Markets in the US.

And for the record, there are studies that show some Markets have been harmed by minimum wage increases.