Healthcare--a right or not?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by WAN, Feb 23, 2017.

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  1. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    If you like totalitarianism.
     
  2. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Nope. True freedom
     
  3. Foolardi

    Foolardi Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So then Laws against Sodomy were Constitutional.?
    States had such laws and some states enforced them throughout our
    vaunted history.
     
  4. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    No. Why should I care about your "feelings"?

    The United States, by its ethical commitment and legal responsibility, as a matter of fact, does not consign anyone who is sick to suffering and death. In that respect it shares the moral imperative of all other advanced nations.

    Do those other advanced nations achieve universal coverage, and at a far lower cost that the US that fails to cover tens of millions? Undeniably.

    There are ideologues whose dogma compels them to rage against that enlightened reality, but it remains the reality, nonetheless.
     
  5. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    The Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional.
     
  6. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    How are they in conflict? For one legal commitment to override another, they must differ in some respect.

    The declaration is legally binding on all signatory member states of the United Nations and is, thereby, part of international law. I know of no US statute that declares that everyone does not have the right "to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."
     
  7. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    How is taking away one persons property to give a right to another constitutional?
     
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    And if it does, what's the enforcement mechanism?
     
  9. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    Statist gotta state!

    They love their authoritarianism, they were indoctrinated into it. When you've been a slave all your life, the concept of freedom can be difficult to grasp. I know from first hand experience.

    It used to frustrate me, but any more it is more akin to pity. If their own curiosity is sparked by the freedom movement, then I will adress them. Otherwise cutting through years of indoctrination fog is nearly impossible.
     
  10. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    There is nothing in the constitution that prohibits it
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It may not be a right in less civilised parts of the world, but it should be. The markers of civilisation (ethical) are universal free education and healthcare, clean drinking water, and basic welfare. Less is barbaric.
     
  12. WAN

    WAN Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Huh? Not quite sure what you meant. Anyway, let me try and re-phrase my question. Let's say there is a new regime in the US now, and they don't want to honor the Declaration of Human rights anymore, for some reason. Would there be any consequences?
     
  13. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    you're making a huuuuge unfounded assumption when you just assume that bob "knows" what is right and wrong. The point is that he doesn't. Or rather, he might have an idea of right and wrong that is very different from yours. That people own themselves is AN idea among many. Other ideas might say that a king owns everyone. Or that people of a certain race/religion can be owned by other people. Or that everyone is owned by god. et cetera. You can't just assume your morals are "the" morals. that's my point. There is no universally agreed upon definition of good and bad! don't you know that?... If you were to take random people from various places in place and time, they would have veeery different views of right and wrong. Some cultures didn't have any concept of property rights, some cultures saw slavery as moral, some believe punishing blasphemers was good...

    your idea of rights may collapse without universal absolutes.. But does that make it true? That's literally wishful thinking, and wishful thinking does not make it true. This is my whole point: there are no universal absolutes, and therefore ethics is just everyone's subjective views of good and bad, therefore your view of rights does indeed collapse.

    that's not so easy. in fact humans have literally NEVER been able to do it. and they certainly haven't agreed to your definition.

    that's not the definition of natural law that most of it's proponens are using, iirc. "natural law" offers a particular explaination for the origins of rights, and what those rights are, and why they are justified. It's certainly not something that most, or even many, people agree with. Throghout history, and even today, natural rightists have been a minority.
    christ sake, we're speaking of someone who is badly injured. Getting treatment isn't luxury! it's not a hammock! it's a safety net: to catch people from falling, then helping them to climb the ladder again. You are doing it again: you are comparing getting treatment for a serious injury to luxury. Stop it, it's ridiculous! you're speaking of it as if we're talking about getting free cosmetical surgery or something. You know it's not the same thing..
     
  14. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    Sure there is. If that document does not expressly grant the federal government the right to do something then it is does not have the right to do it.

    It seems that you aught to read the Constitution in its entirety. Cause youre missing a lot.
     
  15. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    The constitution says it can collect taxes. You do know this ....don't you? LOL

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also we can do all kinds of things not expressly written into the constitution
     
  16. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    If I take you, put a gun to your head and make you do everything I want everyday, hold you hostage, you have no rights. Except what I, the one with the gun give you.
    No one is born with any rights.
     
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Morally? What does morals have to do with rights?
    Please give1 right, other than the right to live, and that is questionable, that is a guaranteed right. And how is it gauranteed?
     
  18. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    How about this. You have been down on your luck, had an illness, your money is gone, your place to live is gone. You're hungry, you can't buy any food. No one is handing you anything on the street. You haven't eaten in a few days. What would you do to get food?
     
  19. WAN

    WAN Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I actually already agreed with Natty that we as a society should help the disabled and truly needy. My main beef is with people who are healthy in body and mind but who nevertheless choose not to work. Leeches.
     
  20. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well that actually was my question. What enforcement mechanism does the UN have to enforce their treaties? I would say none, so it's largely irrelevant.
     
  21. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Explain then, would a hospital get in trouble, legally, if someone went to the ER having a heart attack and they sent them home without treatment because the person having the attack said they could not pay for this treatment.
    And the person died.
     
  22. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    I bet that pissted you off.
     
  23. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A right cannot be purchased and therefore healthcare does not fit the criteria. Out of control Capitalism and Politics have redefined what "Rights" are to the point that they no longer seem relevant. Hell, women no longer even have rights to their own bodies....let alone their healthcare.
     
  24. WAN

    WAN Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with you that the hospital should indeed treat such a person and not just let them die. But if the hospital does this enough times (as in, treating people who can't pay), it will go into financial trouble. In fact, isn't this a problem in states that have a large presence of illegal immigrants? The hospitals can't turn them away so they treat the illegals, but the illegals can't pay and now the hospitals are going broke.
     
  25. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    IMO, that is one of the big problems with our healthcare. There were millions using it and could not pay.
    And we all end up paying in higher insurance premiums or higher costs at the health facility. And those that can not pay, used the most expensive form of a facility, the ER room. Rather than prevent an illness or treat it early, they wait until it's an emergency.

    But RWers here, don't seem to grasp that. They think the hospital/provider do the stuff for free or something, I don't know.
    But we, the people who pay, are paying for those millions one way or another.
     
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