May has made her position clear. She is going to go for a hard Brexit. She herself is on record saying how devastating Breit would be to the UK economy. The Bresiteers did not even bother to price anything while on their joy ride because they never expected to win. They were just playing with the UK's future. 2/3rd of England's exports go to the EU. During the campaign what I was hearing was that the worst that would happen would be that we would be in much the same way but have no say - a not very accurate conception of Britain inside EFTA. (I voted remain) Labour stopped a proper opposition to Brexit by deciding on another anti Corbyn fest rather than working on fighting for the needs of the people of the UK. At the moment Nicola is providing the only hope to bring England back from a future of almost certain dire poverty for the masses - a people who have already bought into blaming the other for their problems rather than working politically to resolve them in their correct position which is the decline in democracy due to neo liberalism and Corporate Power. The neo Liberalism and Corporate Power is what the anti Corbyn Labour people work to keep and that is the basis of the problem both in the UK and in the West in General. Unless she brings back a much better deal than a hard exit, Scotland is out. May knows that so as I say, Nicola at the moment is the only person whose work may improve the prospects of all people in the UK.
Sturgeon is behaving as if she is a premier of a country when the role of first minister is not to try and decide foreign policy as she has tried to do several times and its the British government that is letting her do this knowing full well of the futility of her actions.
No she is deciding what is best for Scotland and that is her job. What is happening now goes against the 'vow' on which the vote to remain in the UK almost certainly lies as well as the continued assertion that the only way that people could guarantee that they would stay in the EU was to vote to remain in the UK. Regarding the 'Vow'. We were told we would be an equal partner as near to Federalism as there can be. A hard Brexit would destroy Scotland. It makes no difference how difficult the transitional time Scotland now would be economically better off out of the UK and most certainly politically too. We do not want to be stuck with a hard right government for the foreseeable future and the irrevocable harm it will do. Nicola did her best to work for a deal to resolve the issue but May did not even acknowledge her proposals just as all the devolved Governments heard when article 50 would be announced through the BBC. No, you know nothing about the situation and appear to have picked up some untrue propaganda soundbite.
The first minister does not have any authority when it comes to foreign policy, so she's exceeded her remit. Who exactly said that the UK would be quasi- federal country? Not necessarily considering that a maximum of 2% can be imposed on exports and free movement would likely be replaced with cheap visas. May's government isn't hard right. You're making it sound as if the Nazis are in charge. Economically it wouldn't make any sense to leave the UK because Scotland would not be able to use the GBP, potentially have to pay duties for exports to England and raise taxes and at a higher rate because of the additional government expenditure of being an independent country. Sturgeon has no authority and even then she's more than aware that the government had an obligation to leave the EU. Do you even know what Sturgeon's proposals were? I think you need to familiarise yourself with what the Scottish government is actually responsible for. I should also point that you're extremely arrogant by saying I know nothing about the "situation"
Even May lied that she was going to be consulting with all the devolved Governments and find a solution which was acceptable to everyone. Sturgeon's prime responsibility is to look after the needs of the Scottish people. This issue is even more pertinent in this situation where the people of Scotland were told that the only way they could guarantee staying in the EU was to vote to remain in the UK. Without this lie the vote may well have gone to leave. As I said as part of the lies Scotland was also told she would be an equal partner and as near to a federalist state as there can be. A lot of Scotland's exports are food and drink - 30-40% taxes. We also are not full as Sturgeon said in her Conference speech. Any English people wishing to escape Brexit would be welcome here. You are the one mentioning Nazis. May is answering to the hard right of the Tory party. That is who is going to be running England for the next 20 years or more. However the whole of the West is at a level people would have considered hard right in the early 80's. We have just moved the centre further and further to the right as rights which our parents and grandparents worked for are taken away. This will get far worse once England is out of the EU and not protected by their rules. In addition to that as I already said an atmosphere of blaming the other has built up in England whether that it is seen as anti Muslim or the massive attacks on all 'others' after Brexit...and on top of that the massive increase in debt which England and Wales are going to bring to the rest of the UK through their BritNationalism. England is the one who would make a bigger loss regarding trade between Scotland and England. I have already pointed out that this situation would be resolved either by Scotland joining EFTA and allowing free trade between Scotland and rUK or if Scotland stays in the EU through a similar deal being done as is currently being discussed between the NI and the rest of Ireland. Wow you really believe you are a colonial power ruling Scotland that you can say that it's first minister and Parliament have no power. and? Sturgeon accepted Brexit but not Scotland leaving the single market and that Scotland should gain control of the areas concerning Scotland which the EU currently has control of rather than them going to Westminster as above Colonial Governor. You sure are building up the case for Independence for me.
No she hasn't said that. What she said was that she would seek a "“a UK-wide approach” has been agreed for negotiations to leave the European Union." Which was correct, the only to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK. You still haven't answered the question. Who said that Scotland would be part of a federal Britain? I'm pretty sure that 40% taxation isn't applied on food and drink >shrugs shoulders< Yes because you were unclear and some people consider that to be right wing. Considering how incompetent the Labour party has been and continues to be so I don't blame people for voting conservative Is this some sort of joke? Eh? No it really wouldn't. EFTA consists of four countries and only two of them even share the same seas. So if you prefer to export to just two and slightly less to the other half of the EFTA countries then good luck. Considering its the UK that's leaving rather than England I don't think that argument applies. I said sturgeon has no authority to decide foreign policy. Please try and read more closely I don't think you understand what the limits are when it comes to the Scottish government. I would be happy to show you the door So its safe to say that you don't actually know the responsibilities of the first minister or the types of power the Scottish government has
I have a low boredom threshold for people who just like to make things up. You missed out the important word guaranteed in your attempt to twist and so of course people voted on a lie. Brown said that. He is the person who is given responsibility for getting the Vow which is what is believed got the remain vote. He spoke mainly to Internationalists who have seen what a laugh was had of them. The situation in Scotland has materially changed since 2014 in just the same as the Brexiteers claimed it had changed for them. Well you are pretty wrong there. I am not here to educate you. It was only last week that Davis told Ben that for Food and Drink the tax would be 30-40%. Short memory or lack of desire to keep up you must have. Food and drink is the top export of Scotland - never mind that the longer we stay with you, the higher deficit you are going to give us wasting money on things we don't want. Man you are too of the place for me. Lack of clarity signifies Nazis which is what you said - weird. No. Nothing I can do about your failure to keep up with the news and lack of ability to understand. I never said anything about that. Your just making things up now. Of course it applies to what is going to happen which is another referendum on Scottish Independence after the deal has been done but before England and wales leave. No you did not. You said This is about far more than foreign policy. This is about destroying the way the UK has been operating for over 40 years. It effects every part of life. It could be argued it makes the 2014 vote on Independence null and void as a large part of that vote was a guarantee of continued membership of the EU for Scotland. says the man who cannot even keep up on Brexit exposures from last week. Your belief is that the Scottish Parliament should not work for what is in the best interests of the Scottish people. Of course I do not agree with that. You believe as a colonial power you can prevent the Scottish people from living under democracy. We shall see. I would bet you are one of the people wanting to end the Scottish Parliament. It is clear that you are just a Hard Brexiteer BritNat here to bait. You will notice I do not reply much to such posts. Consider this waste of time over. Now where is that ignore function?
Whatever it is her job description is. Making sure Scots get their bins collected and stuff, I expect.
The people of Scotland voted to be ruled by Westminster not Holyrood. Strugeon and Holyrood are now nothing more than unnecessary bureaucratic replication. A dream that was not to be.
How could I have made that up when its a direct quote No its pretty logical. I don't know how anyone can perceive that as lying So there is no promise. Fine source it then Could you rewrite that in English please? Wow that really is surprising And there's nothing I can do about adults who behave like children but there you go I can't control who responds to what I write Unless you're ignorant of what the EFTA organisation is then you did basically just say that. Which will not happen prior to leaving the EU and I would even bet money on that. Yes I did No it really wasn't. There is no court of law that could possibly support that idea. Your failure to read is not my responsibility nor are your juvenile retorts Are you on drugs because I never said anything remotely close to that? Where do you get thesse bizarre terms from? No, for your information I did not vote because I felt there were some very good reasons in both camps From what seen I've from you its either you agree or you're a evil person of some description which is not the basis of reasonable discussion. I sincerely suggest that you actually do a bit of research on what the Scottish government does, what its responsible for and what the first minister can and cannot do or do you just like spouting rhetoric? Seriously get rid of that Anglophobia chip on your shoulder as its nauseating
As I read it. Hard Brexit = Leave Soft Brexit = Remain Is that right? Maybe we should have a referendum to decide it. Wow. Timewarp. Why is an independence movement anti independence? What's going on there? How shallow could you be? Not such a high principle this year I see. Oh well.
This is a brilliant article on English Nationalism or British Nationalism - very very accurate I would say. Enjoy Full essay at link http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882
We will know as exactly what we'll be getting as we ever do when any political party sets out its manifesto, or any UK Government sets its budget....as in a best guess as to what the results will be. Nothing in politics can be definitively forecast, as there is too much dependent on outside agencies that politicians can't control. We do however, even on the guesstimates of HMRC/ONS/GERS, have an onshore income pretty much the same as that of the UK as a whole....but we would spend it differently. That is the whole point....to spend it differently...to spend it on what we want and not what Westminster decides we want. The oil price has gone down, certainly, before anybody mentions that, but because of that drop, our onshore economy grew, for all the good that does us, because any growth in the Scottish economy heads into the UK Treasury, and we don't get the benefit. If we were independent, we'd have more than 3000 Government jobs paid for by UK taxes (I'm impressed you didn't say English taxes as most people do, though I suspect you probably mean 30,000 jobs). We already pay from the block grant~(which is simply some of our own money returned to us to spend) for the 16,800 civil servants employed by the SG and government agencies, anyway. Ireland has around 38,000 Civil Servants to run the Government of a small sovereign country, while we get to share the costs of the 387,000 FTE employees in the UK Government. With independence we could have a tax and benefits system a lot less convoluted, and administratively expensive, and with less cart and horse sized loopholes than the current UK has, for example, and an HMRC which actually collects the taxes due. We wouldn't need to spend £3+ billion on a military attack force, but nearer half that on a Scottish defence force, and we'd not have the cost of foreign skirmishes on the coat-tails of the USA, either. We pay for the upkeep of our own buildings, if you mean the Parliament buildings and the likes of Holyrood Palace...and we are also charged for the unnecessary colonial Scottish Office into the bargain. Sure we will have to set up and run a few Government departments for currently reserved competencies, but why would we need 270 diplomatic missions and, 14,000 people in the Foreign Office, for example....or a Trident equivalent in the MOD, and a load of admirals without ships? We don't have a massive deficit, Westminster has a massive deficit. £28 billion of our spending last year was spending for Scotland, of which around £17 billion was also spent in Scotland, and £11 billion is spent on Debt Interest, the MOD and service charges for the various departments which have some input into the "not completely devolved" competencies (which is most of them). We won't have to reduce the deficit to join the EU, we will have to reduce it if we want to join the Euro.....and when we stop paying into the UK Treasury for stuff we don't need, it will be reduced anyway. Don't you think it just a bit shady that the three countries which make up just over 15% of the UK population have deficit figures in the same ball park at between £10 and £15 billion each and manage to rack up more of a deficit among them, going by the UK total deficit figure, than England does? Anyway, if Scotland is in a state, as unionists claim, is that the fault of Scottish governments since 1999 or the fault of UK Governments since 1707?. Do you know something, once we get the "extra powers" of the Scotland Act 2016 we will be getting just 10% more spent in Scotland than we have had for most of the last 300 years...and with that 40%, we will be expected to meet 63% of our spending. That will possibly mean higher taxes for Scotland IN THE UK, because that is exactly what it was meant to achieve. The whole devolution thing was intended from the beginning to do pull the rug from under the feet of the SNP....as was GERS. Do you really think we are being more spiteful than a government who turned round after the last referendum and set in train ALL the things they told us would happen if we voted NO? We have Brexit; renewables subsidies have been cancelled/reduced; the "broad shoulders of the UK" didn't do much to protect the oil industry/jobs; the "near as dammit federalism" is simply more responsibility but no more powers; pensions aren't safe; frigate numbers were cut, and the building of those left postponed indefinitely; the Carbon Capture scheme for Peterhead was cancelled; 2,500 HMRC jobs are going and a heap of DWP offices are closing, and within fifteen minutes of the indy result....we got EVEL, which basically means the whole UK pays for England to have their own dedicated Parliament and Government departments in the palace of Westminster, and Scotland gets no input to any decision made by English MPs which impact on Scotland as part of the UK. Now tell me who is spiteful......all we are doing is trying to take back control of our own lives....just as England/Wales decided to do with Brexit. Why is it not spiteful for England/Wales to remove the whole UK and Gibraltar from the EU to satisfy the Tory hard right and try to cut the feet from UKIP, but spiteful for us to want to get out from under the thumb of Westminster. It isn't the EU which gives tax cuts to the rich and cuts benefits to the disabled..or even sets taxes.. It isn't the EU which decides the levels of the state pension. It isn't the EU which decides what the UK spends the biggest part of its income on...but you know something, even if it did...Scotland would have a say in that...a say they don't have in a Parliament where English constituency MPs outnumber the MPs from the other three countries. The EU is democratic, the UK is not. And there is no forcing measures to join the Euro...we can do it at our own pace, if we get round to doing it at all.
If you count the oil and gas, we don't have a deficit....but the oil and gas is only counted as UK exports, not Scottish. In fact the Import/Export figures are as woolly as any figures relating to Scotland in the UK...because nobody knows the facts as nobody collects them. Even Scotland's own attempt at ascertaining what Scotland exports, because it is voluntary and not obligatory, only shows part of the picture. I'm not bothered, anyway, if cross-border exchange of goods stops, then it stops, though I'd be surprised if the businesses in either state will pass over the chance for sales/profit because one of the governments is having a hissy fit. I'm sure rUK can find somewhere else to send the goods they export to Scotland, and find other places from which to import the equivalents of what they import from Scotland. Good luck to them...but as long as I can get food, water, light and heat, I'm not overly bothered either way as I'm not much of a consumer just for the sake of consuming....and Scotland doesn't need to import any food, water, light and heat from rUK (although the choice of foodstuff will likely be reduced...which might make us healthier and less obese) It's not about political power...it is about democracy and sovereignty. After independence, the SNP won't be the only party in Scotland representing the interests of the Scottish people...there will be others...and a more proportional method of electing our MPs to really reduce the possibility of dictatorship by any single political party.....a proportional system which works better than the hybrid one which was dreamed up to stop one single party getting control of the Parliament, and which, like so many of Westminster's brainfarts, failed miserably. We have lived, along with NI and Wales, with a democratic deficiency in the UK for 310 years, and one which, despite our efforts since the discussions around the Treaty of Union in favour of a federal system before 1707, has changed not one iota of the colonial Westminster attitude. If that version of democracy as practised in the UK means that we get independence on a majority of however many people bother to turn out to vote, then that is the will of the people....in the same way as Brexit is assumed to be, even though the majority was in England and Wales and not in the UK as a whole. So we will not be taking over someone else's country, we will be taking back our own....just as England and Wales took theirs back in the Brexit vote, without considering the wishes of NI, Scotland or Gibraltar. or those who voted to remain in England and Wales Independence will come, and I hope in the lifetime of this 70 year old, but that is down to Theresa May....if she decides to make some effort, as requested by the Scottish Government, to make arrangements whereby Scotland can remain in the single market when the rest of the UK brexits, then that will put it back for a time.....but I don't expect the desire of many for independence will ever go away, and I don't expect that a predominantly English Parliament will ever offer Scotland and Wales even as much autonomy as Northern Ireland already has, given they didn't even go that far with the much hyped VOW, thanks to the unionist parties involved in the Smith Commission. The very fact that, of the amendments tabled by Scottish MPs to improve the Scotland Bill,none passed into law, even though 56 of our 59 representatives voted for all of them, and 58 out of 59 for many of them....then right there is the democratic deficit built into the Westminster system writ large.That democratic deficit is as much of the reason for the independence movement as anything else...and I see no will on the part of an English dominated UK Parliament to change the situation in any meaningful way. If we do vote for independence...England will have reaped what it has been sowing for the last 310 years and the centuries long intransigence of an English Parliament, disguised as a UK one, will have only themselves to blame.
If we were independent, we'd have more than 3000 Government jobs paid for by UK taxes (I'm impressed you didn't say English taxes as most people do, though I suspect you probably mean 30,000 jobs). We already pay from the block grant~(which is simply some of our own money returned to us to spend) for the 16,800 civil servants employed by the SG and government agencies, anyway. Ireland has around 38,000 Civil Servants to run the Government of a small sovereign country, while we get to share the costs of the 387,000 FTE employees in the UK Government. With independence we could have a tax and benefits system a lot less convoluted, and administratively expensive, and with less cart and horse sized loopholes than the current UK has, for example, and an HMRC which actually collects the taxes due. We wouldn't need to spend £3+ billion on a military attack force, but nearer half that on a Scottish defence force, and we'd not have the cost of foreign skirmishes on the coat-tails of the USA, either. Good read this one, thanks for posting. I certainly buy into the possibility of savings from smaller govt. Probability in my eyes. Responsive. If your Prime Minister lives around the corner from you, you can always go round and slap him. Accountable. As they do in NZ If Scotland breaks ups because those who wish to be governed by Holyrood won't accept the will of those who prefer to be governed by Westminster, there may end up multiple Scottish defence forces. That won't make things any cheaper either.
I don't think the UK can find other places to sell it's goods than Scotland. The world is a buyers market. Not good to lose the wealthy customers. Nor your nearest. Logistically, distance counts. I concur that I expect trade to continue unaffected. May be some paperwork changes and tax bill variations. Maybe some border control and smuggling. But by and large the economic argument for independence is a red herring in both this and the EU case to my eyes. Which palaces takes what? Makes no difference to me. The problem with arguing that Scottish Independence is about democracy is this... it has been democratically decided by Scotland, that Scotland does not want Scottish independence. So there is no democracy angle left in this as long as you seek a untied independent Scotland. You have to localise further and then hold smaller referendums where you do have majority populous.
If we have a referendum, fairly run, (unlike the last one) and a majority of people vote to stay in the UK, so be it...for a while, but don't expect us to get back in our box because we lost any more than political parties do when they lose. If you don't live in Scotland, you might not be aware that the only ones who have been banging on about a second referendum since the days after the first one, have been the unionists...they are obsessed to the extent that our local government elections are being flagged up on Tory leaflets, in my area anyway, as a kinda plebiscite on the need for a second referendum, and hardly a word on local issues. If we vote for independence, the NO voters will have to accept it, set up a political party with the aim of rejoining the Union, or emigrate to England where they might feel more comfortable. That is democracy Westminster style...as typified by Brexit. In 2014 we were told that if we stayed in the union, we could choose to be Scottish AND British (just as if we were going to float away from the British Isles when we became independent) . Theresa May has removed that choice as now we are all British together whether we like it or not. It will be interesting to see if the EU, knowing there will be an independence referendum will let May et al use Scotland's resources as bargaining chips. I'm hoping that, given these days of the internet and video conferencing, it may be an idea to move some Government departments away from Edinburgh to boost the economies and hopefully the facilities of other areas...in order to avoid another "London is God" style scenario. I can remember Westminster talking about doing that, but I don't know if they ever did it. I suspect not. I'm not really the best person to talk about the economy, though, because I'd happily eat grass for the rest of my life, if it meant we would be independent, but I honestly don't see that we can make a bigger mess of it than Westminster has.
If you vote for independence the "No" voters won't have to put up with it any more than you are currently willing to just put up with it. All you get is the exact same political injustice in the system, but with one side getting it's revenge. Fix it. Wining the Referendum by 51%, doesn't win you a united Scotland. It wins you a divided one. And if a million unionists refuse to be ruled by you, we shall intervene in their favour if we need to. That said if you want to make your own Free Scotland or whatever, go for it. Expect helpfulness in that fine goal. In order to be liberal, democratic and free, you must be free not to be ruled by me. So if you feel that you are being so, please let us separate. In all honesty, from what I see of Holyrood, I agree with the Scottish electorate, they make Westminster look good.
It was democratically decided by Scotland to stay in a UK which was in the EU. That was the main thing apart from the currency, that the Better Together crowd repeated ad nauseam. We also had all the celebrity love-ins, threats, promises and that flaming VOW....but I've already mentioned elsewhere what happened after we voted No to all the promises and guarantees. We won't be so easily fooled a second time.(I hope) It seems to me that, given the uncertainty we are going to get for probably years, while Westminster gets its trading eggs in a row, we are just as well striking out on our own with an uncertainty which is in our own control. In the first instance, we get independence for the whole of Scotland...after that, it is down to the people in other areas if they want independence from Scotland..and if they do, they can do what the SNP has been doing for 80 years and build up a demography which agrees with them. That is democracy.
Yes, and the situation with oil does not appear quite what it seems http://www.businessforscotland.com/norway-still-getting-much-tax-oil/ They also point out that these tax breaks coincided with people being put out of work and questions whether Westminster even considered protecting jobs rather than giving corporations handouts. Things most certainly can and will change with Independence. Indeed this article by Richard Murray goes into this and comes to this conclusion http://www.thenational.scot/politic...udge_Scotland_s_financial_state/?ref=mr&lp=13 Yes, I agree with that. I think this time we know what we are up against and I also think we can win the economic argument. Scotland will be better off in all ways outside rUK possibly also with NI. Once ScotRef gets going I would think most people will move to yes except maybe the 35% confirmed Unionists, many of them so old they also remember and miss the Empire. Of course there will be a time of transition when things are likely to be hard but that is nothing as to what we would be living with a hard Brexit. There just is not anything to hold us to rUK now, neither politically or economically - except of course to be as good a neighbour as possible.
https://theenergyadvocate.co.uk/201...apse-makes-case-scottish-independence-harder/ I would say the value of oil and gas to the argument that Scotland would be better off independent is a dead loss, which is probably why Ms Sturgeon glosses over it this time. She'd be totally nuts if she didn't. And no matter what, the UK is probably leaving the EU; and as Scotland is part of the UK and not a sovereign state, then Scotland is leaving too. Should Scotland become independent some time in the 2020s, then if its economy is good enough, then it could apply to join and may even be welcomed. That is what the argument should be. That it may be possible for Scotland to join the EU as an independent state some time in the future, but until then the people of Scotland must recognise that there will be a hard time ahead, involving higher taxes and cuts . And if the people of Scotland decide that all that would be worth it, then good luck to them. Meanwhile, Ms Sturgeon should perhaps concentrate on local issues.
Tense correction. In the first case we didn't get independence for the whole of Scotland. Didn't. The first case, the democratic case has been made and lost. The vote took place. Independence was democratically rejected. So the reverse of what you have described needs to take place. You must leave. Not the 55%, the 45%. They don't have to bow to you.
Maybe so, diamond lil.....but the tax income from 100% of our oil, to allocate according to our own preferences is better than we get now. On 12th June 2016, in an Andrew Marr interview, David Cameron said that Norway's success is primarily due to UK level oil volume and the benefits of a smaller population..and he nearly slipped and mentioned that they have an enormous [oil fund]. (while the UK just piddled their take up a wall.). Very different remark from his witterings in the first indyref. Is it not interesting that a country with a population roughly the same as Scotland, with much the same oil resources, managed to have an oil fund as a cushion against hard times...and the UK has the hard times plus an annual deficit and a £1.3 trillion(and rising) National Debt? And into the bargain, the UK pays more for petrol than most countries without oil...but then the UK taxes the oil companies much less than any other country with oil does. Given it would be surprising if a set of Government figures deliberately produced to satisfy a political imperative,,,,ie show that Scotland is "subsidised" , would be showing anything accurate, even if accurate figures were available, which as far as we know they are not. The first versions of Gers, an idea from Ian Lang, the Tory Scottish Secretary who recommended it saying " I judge that it is just what is needed at present in our campaign to maintain the initiative and undermine the other parties. This initiative should score against all of them." Didn't work in Scotland to undermine the other parties, but it certainly convinced English voters that Scotland was subsidised by them and only them (even though England always has a deficit on the same criteria.) The economy is good enough now, as even on the fudged figures we have much the same income per head as the UK, and will have little need for a bloated UK Government machine to shell out for...and next time we will, I hope make a better job of convincing people of that. I would say that it is more than possible that the UK is leaving the EU, but whether Scotland is still with it when they do has yet to be decided. We will see what May does for us in the negotiations to keep us in the single market.....and then decide. By the way, Nicola Sturgeon is getting on with her day job...86 bills through the Scottish Parliament so far...though I do wonder why you don't say the same about May and her obsession with Brexit......Do you really think that Sturgeon doesn't have ministers to do her bidding and only May has....or do you not know anything about how Governments work?
Tut, tut, Baff. I really thought you wanted debate, but it appears you are just like the unionist media ...taking things out of context and misrepresenting what was actually said......although, while "in the first instance" (not the first case, btw.) refers to my sentence, which refers to the future next couple of years, not the past few...ie "It seems to me that, given the uncertainty we are going to get for probably years, while Westminster gets its trading eggs in a row, we are just as well striking out on our own with an uncertainty which is in our own control" . It could perfectly well have been said in the first case.....of the first indyref though, if we had won, as the same democratic option would have applied then. If the Scottish population still feels the same way next time....then the whole of Scotland will not get independence.......is that not the way democracy works? After all England and Wales voted to come out of the EU, Scotland, NI and Gibraltar didn't....but here we all are heading over the Brexit cliff together without a safety mat at the behest of only part of the whole electorate. It's not our fault that Westminster sets the rules, is it? Come to think of it, in the Brexit case, we are trying to do exactly what you are saying regarding leaving....we are trying to leave the UK to stay in the EU at the behest of the 62% who voted to stay in the EU. We have a right to pull our parachute cord and see if it billows or refuses to open. .
You are just trying to leave the UK and not at the behest of anyone except yourselves. And if all you wanted was independence you could have it. But if you want "Scotland", you will have first defeat the Scottish and indeed the British. My money isn't on you. Technical correction. England and Scotland aren't in the EU. The UK voted to leave the EU. Your voice in this was equal to mine no matter where in the UK you or I live. Scotland voted to remain in the Union. If you are unable to respect democracy when it goes against you, why should I when it goes against me? It is pointless to hold a second referendum with someone who is unable to respect the result of one. Pointless. What are you offering in this? The chance to resolve the issue for a generation? The boy who cried wolf. The chance for unionists to win? No. You aren't. You are trying to rig a game in your favour against the will of the people. Nothing more, nothing less. You make Westminster look honest and trustworthy. Most of your countrymen agree. Boo hoo the EU. Do you honestly think anyone in the world is taking you seriously at this time except yourselves? Voter fatigue comes next. The SNP has peaked. If it looks like getting a referendum going, the silent majority will have to speak up again. Democracy doesn't lead to Scottish Independence. At best it leads to a Free Scotland and a Union Scotland. Or an EU Scotland and a UK Scotland. A break up of Scotland. So the SNP can't deliver. It's very purpose for being is fail. There is however a very large number of politically aligned Indy people in Scotland now. They understand the power of their numbers. They can take a parliament. Having seen this, they won't want to stop. They feel they have momentum. But they have peaked. That dream has ended.
