Where Does Morality Come From?

Ultimately morality is merely the code that when entered into a human brain, allows it to function at it's most rewarding, highest, level.

 

I see you have put a lot of thought into this and that you are an intelligent and inquisitive person, do you disagree with my definition of morality?

 

You assume incorrectly.

You'd have done better to start with those, rather than wasting my time with the inane preliminaries.

 

I apologize in advance to yguy, but this is the truth: Econ4Every1, yguy has no interest in debate. My advice is for you to not bother. I know very well that he refuses to support his beliefs with evidence. Nor does he care to, so it really is a waste if time for both you and him as well. yguy is not a Christian, though likely a Theist or Deist. See below:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...s-the-bible-say.502615/page-2#post-1067360347

Not necessarily incorrect about his assumptions regarding absolute morality, though not necessarily correct either due to lack of proof. The only proof being his belief that his own opinions on morality are automatically in line with what is right. Despite the vast amount of different ideologies that people support based on their own conscience. Which tends to make everything even more difficult regarding the human race.

 

sounds like ethics

 

How very amusing.

More accurately, I have no interest in debates which harbor no potential for anything beyond the stultification of everyone within earshot - which, if your responses to me can be taken as representative, is the only sort you are interested in.

 

Somewhat.

 

I'm interested in a friendly conversation. I will speak to you as if I am a guest in your home. That doesn't mean I won't ask you difficult questions, just I'll treat you as I want to be treated while I do it.

If you aren't interested, that is ok too. Your call.

-Cheers

 

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but if you've read what I've written, you'll see that I attempt to go a layer deeper by pointing out that our values are the root of our morality.

You mention survival, but that doesn't tell us much. I mean, you could be locked in a small cell and be provided all you need to survive (food water ect), is that moral? What about being locked in a cell would be immoral based on what you've stated?

I'm not sure how that helps us develop a system of morality.

Is it immoral to make children work?

Is it immoral to cheat on one's spouse?

Why is stealing wrong?

If two people need to kill another person to survive, is that moral? How, given what you've said, would you perform the moral calculus?

 

Well how very handsome.

Since you put it that way, let me clue you in: if you mean to wear out your welcome in "my home", your conduct so far has gotten you at least halfway there; but if not...

...get the hell on with it already.

 

Um, thank you, but I'm married.

What "conduct" are you speaking of?

Why are you so angry?

Anyway....Few simple questions...

What do we mean when we call something right or wrong? What are we saying about a particular action that makes it right or wrong? If stealing is wrong, what is it about stealing that makes it......wrong?

 

What ever humans say remain personal speculation by faith (i.e., they don't know they are talking about). The truth of this is not provable.

 

Thank you for the heads up, but I'll judge for myself

If you're gold is to make others see your point of view, chances are you will be disappointed and consider your conversation a waste of time. Trying to get others to agree with me is not my goal. Of course, I try to convince people of the soundness of my arguments, but I've accepted that there are some people who cannot be moved regardless of the argument.

My goal is to have

1) To learn as much as I can about things I don't know.

2) Good conversation

3) To encourage others to read along and judge the strength of the arguments between myself and others for themselves and draw their own conclusions

Morality is subjective and as such its proof and evidence is a bit more subtle and any conversation I have will be an attempt to illuminate that fact.

Anyway. Thanks for the comments, feel free to jump in again if you feel you have something to add.

 

I'm sorry, the truth of what isn't provable?

 

The truth of where our morality is coming from!

 

Of course it is.

Would you agree that some actions are bad and others are good?

Here, let me ask it like this, do you think the worst possible suffering that you can imagine is bad?

 

All behavior is a product of evolution, but not all behavior is considered moral.

Ok, so I should act morally within my group?

What if someone is disabled or old and takes more resources than they give back, should we remove them from the group?

If my actions don't harm the group, can they be considered moral?

Even when discussing social animals. I saw a video once of a Lioness that had killed an adult baboon and after realized there was a baby baboon. The lioness defended the baby from other lions (perhaps hyenas, I can't remember). Did the lioness value the life of the baby? Did it feel compassion? Did it feel guilt for killing the parent?

I think the answer is most likely no. It was what I could only describe as confused instinct. We, humans, love to project our emotions and morality onto animals. I remain skeptical that there is much beyond instinct in cases like these.

Virtually everything here is a description of the results of morality rather than a justification for it. You talk about some benefits but in such broad terms. For example, groups are good because they help me survive, so it's ok to steal from those outside my group?

Don't take this as overly critical, just as conversation.

 

Morality is subjective and evolves. Sure, we can now universally agree on several actions as immoral, but this does not give monopoly to any institution as establishing objective morals.

Those who believe the biblical God is the establishment of objective morals should take a long hard look at their bible and see just how much current beliefs have evolved from Its mythical stories in the OT.

 

Only a nitwit would use the Bible as a moral guide in the 21st Century modern world.

 

Two thoughts:

1) These days, at least with social species, particularly humans, there is genetic evolution and memetic evolution. The later seems to have more influence on individuals' behavior in a population than the former.

2) Behavior may be moral, immoral or amoral, whatever those terms mean.

 

Wrong question. Here's the right question: why is your conduct so repulsively obsequious?

What I mean by it, in the present context, is that it violates the laws of Nature and of Nature's God. What you mean by it I couldn't care less.

It violates the conscience of the thief (or murderer or rapist or whatever), and the rights of the property owner (or murder or rape or whatever victim). You're welcome.

 

I enjoy good conversation, but clearly, you are incapable. You, sir, are rude and I won't be baited into feeding what I can only imagine is some sort of endorphin based reward system in your mind. Sort of like OCD or other forms of addiction.

I hope you seek treatment for it and find some peace in your life.

-Cheers

 

For anyone else that is curious how I might respond to yguy.....

I said:

What do we mean when we call something right or wrong?

yguy replied:

"What I mean by it, in the present context, is that it violates the laws of Nature and of Nature's God.

I know of no "laws" of nature and I'm not certain even if there was a god/s, how the introduction of a god/s would make the slightest bit of difference on how people determine their morality.

Then I asked:

"What are we saying about a particular action that makes it right or wrong? If stealing is wrong, what is it about stealing that makes it......wrong?"

And yguy replied:

It violates the conscience of the thief (or murderer, or rapist), and the rights of the property owner (or murder or rape victim).

Why does this matter? Why should anyone care about the thief's conscience or the property rights of the owner?

If I was about to be brutally murdered and I was asked why I didn't want to be killed, I wouldn't say "because it violates the conscience of the murderer" Or because it violates my "property rights".

I would explain that I feared the pain and suffering of a brutal slow death, I feared the loss of my relationships and the pain it would cause those who count on me, who love and care about me. Since I am aware of the future I would mourn the loss of my potential experiences.

My desire to live would be driven by real rational experiences, not some illusion of "rights" that I believe I'm bequeathed by some celestial entity or power.

 

Certainly that's one way of looking at it. Another is that I've cut you way more slack than you deserve.

who the hell cares

More to the point, you'd rather be dead than be aware of those laws.

Had you any understanding of either, you'd know the question is thunderously retarded.

I don't suppose you'd care to explain why the hell anyone should care more for any of that than they should for the underlined.

 

I have conversation with people who treat me with respect. I don't have to justify my answers to the likes of people like you.

Having said that, ironically, your behavior and my response to it is a perfect example of why you should choose to moral.