Self-Driving Vehicles Will Cause Countless Avoidable Deaths, Say No America!

Discussion in 'Science' started by JimfromPennsylvania, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. JimfromPennsylvania

    JimfromPennsylvania Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    611
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    43
    What is epically sad and disappointing about elected officials in Congress and the President is their failure to pass laws outlawing self-driving vehicles. Proponents of this technology say that this technology will eventually lead to less deaths and less serious injuries from motor vehicle accidents. That is not the critical point even if it reduces deaths and serious injuries by ninety percent, self-driving vehicles should still be outlawed because many of the deaths that do occur from this technology will have been reasonably definitely preventable deaths if only a human being was behind the wheel of the vehicle the death wouldn't have occurred. To the fatality victims of self-driving vehicles and their families and loved ones the government and this technology's proponents can never successfully defend the case for allowing these vehicles on the road. It is about values, traditional America values such values are that America holds each and every life dear and will make outstanding effort to preserve such life. That is why when America goes to war we don't leave soldiers behind or make an outstanding effort not to, that is why we have speed limit regulations for all our highways there is no autobahns in America American lives are more important than any time saving or freedom that would accrue from such an approach. Self-driving vehicles are based on technology and reasonable people know that technology fails and what is at stake here are vehicles weighing thousands of pounds and moving at significant rates of speeds at issue here is motor vehicles that can be deadly weapons under certain circumstances for heaven sake the world has seen how terrorist use motor vehicles to kill people. Self-driving technology will never be able to replace the awareness and judgment of human senses and the human mind and thus will always be less safe. Maybe some of these specific examples will be voided by the advancement of technology but not the principle at issue which is technology will never be able to offer competitive safety protections that human control offers at every moment a motor vehicle is in use. Red flags about self-driving technology include the following; it will never have the perception reliabilty of being aware of potholes, obstructions on the road, intoxicated or in trouble drivers, hazardous road conditions, hazardous conditions pertaining to the vehicle being driven. This perception advantage of human drivers does and will prevent accidents and save lives in an abundance of incidents every year and the U.S. government should not throw this safety protection away!







    The reason why this is being permitted is money, the money spent on researching this technology and the money that will be spent on building and selling this technology. This is morally depraved that we as a society would sacrifice some of our citizens lives and critical aspects of our citizens health and in many cases the well being of their families over money, over financial wealth! Let this recent fatality caused by an Uber self-driving vehicle wake America up let us effectuate our American value of making an outstanding effort to protect human life by outlawing self-driving vehicles!
     
  2. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Prove it.

    What are your credentials?

    How do these systems interpret the environment and where will the logic fail?

    What is your experience with AI?

    Explain how the sensors work.







    The reason why this is being permitted is money, the money spent on researching this technology and the money that will be spent on building and selling this technology. This is morally depraved that we as a society would sacrifice some of our citizens lives and critical aspects of our citizens health and in many cases the well being of their families over money, over financial wealth! Let this recent fatality caused by an Uber self-driving vehicle wake America up let us effectuate our American value of making an outstanding effort to protect human life by outlawing self-driving vehicles![/QUOTE]
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I suspect self driving cars will move us toward fewer automobile related deaths.

    Humans just aren't that good at paying attention, staying sober, not eating/phoning/shaving, etc. And, we can't ask the cars around us what they intend to do.
     
    BillRM likes this.
  4. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    15,501
    Likes Received:
    3,740
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Instead of self driving vehicles,
    I propose a few ideas:

    1. Reduce brightness of aftermarket automobile headlights as newer types tend to temporarily blind drivers at night.

    2. Place tracking device in roads and highways to assist vehicles in holding a path or curve.

    3. Interface vehicle's G.P.S. with updated road Data, so turns or exits and road changes, Destination, accidents and road hazzards are advised.

    4. Extrapolate Data from vehicles on road and share such Data with all vehicles on the road as far as traffic slow downs and other traffic related problems.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  5. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    15,501
    Likes Received:
    3,740
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Considering how many cars are on the road on any given day, especially during Rush Hours, there are very few accidents on any given day, despite your abject pessimism.
     
  6. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2015
    Messages:
    25,530
    Likes Received:
    5,363
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It'll never catch on for the obvious reason that it will be impossible to overtake the car(s) ahead. Wow, am I the only one to have spotted this? I'm smarter than I thought! :cool:
     
  7. iamanonman

    iamanonman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4,826
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just because the accident rate is already low doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't strive to make it lower.

    I too think autonomous vehicles will reduce accidents in the future. It might be a case of 1 step back and 2 steps forward kind of thing though.
     
  8. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    20,296
    Likes Received:
    7,744
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No doubt, this method of navigation is not stoppable. It will be done for economic reasons, which delete labor, truck drivers from the capitalist equation. That same tech will yield greater safety for cars as well, once the tech reaches the optimum level.

    Say hello to a form of socialism in our future. No way to escape it unless you can find something hundreds of millions can do to earn the money to buy what the robots and AI produces, and enough jobs in fields that robots and AI can't do better and cheaper. People say sure, there will be such fields, except no one has a clue as to what they are. So they write promissory notes to keep folks from thinking about it or worrying. I know where it leads. To some form of high tech socialism, where we all get the same income as peasants so we can buy what the robots and AI of the elites provide for us.

    To make extra money, which everyone will need, we can wash one another's clothes. lol Think that out...

    Of course there is always the "final solution". I will let you work that out yourself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  9. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    if all the AI controlled cars are traveling at the posted speed limit why would they need to overtake?...what you're saying is you want to break the law and create a hazard for everyone else...AI will improve traffic times not slow down commutes...
     
  10. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And when terrorists and miscreants hack and program this tech into weapons, like hacking into trucks with dangerous chemicals and drive them into buildings and terrorists operating their own bomb laden AI driven cars and see how funny this is. Not to mention the huge loss of jobs.
     
  11. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The luddites will be coming out of the woodwork with this accident. An autonomous car can drive millions of miles without an accident where as the average among humans is one accident per every 165,000 miles. There is literally carnage on the streets and highways caused by human error, but one person dies to an autonomous vehicle and the whole technology must me outlawed!

    Will you also accept the blood on your hands for every person who dies that wouldn't have in an automated vehicle environment? I doubt it; statists luddites don't want responsibility, they just want to control everyone else without consequence.
     
    BillRM likes this.
  12. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yup I recall the same luddites calling for the ban of electric cars because of the when one Tesla caught fire...and not single word is said about the thousands upon thousands of ICE vehicles have been recalled by all other conventional auto makers...
     
    BleedingHeadKen and BillRM like this.
  13. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, to save the jobs and eliminate the use of these vehicles to kill people through criminal and terrorist actions, if it has a computer and a wireless connection it can be hacked eventually then these vehicles become weapons of mass destruction if its all we have. Plus the loss of millions of jobs for drivers of all kinds.
     
  14. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    so nuclear power plants, water purification plants, hospitals etc can all be and have been hacked so we should shut everything down?????back to horse and buggies like in the good old days?
     
    BillRM and dairyair like this.
  15. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Let me ask are there people in nuclear power plants, hospitals and other facilities or not to act as a protection from such threats last time I checked if a nuclear reactor was compromised the humans can manually intervene if needed. Now a driverless car or truck has no driver where is the person intervening if someone does hack it?
     
  16. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    really, so the CIA and NSA are worried needlessly by the recent discovery of russian infiltration into those facilities? are you an IT expert? maybe you should in charge of the CIA and NSA...
     
  17. iamanonman

    iamanonman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4,826
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You need to read the book Atomic Accidents by Mahaffey. More often than not a nuclear accident occurred precisely because a human thought they could outsmart a computer or automated safety mechanism.
     
  18. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2015
    Messages:
    25,530
    Likes Received:
    5,363
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Problems will arise at traffic lights, or when there's a tailback behind a slow-moving truck? It's impossible to maintain the same distance behind the vehicle ahead for more than a few minutes without a 'concertina' effect happening a little way further on, and then the rearward traffic will have to stop until it clears. It sounds all very nice and simple in theory but it won't work in practice.
     
  19. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yeah it's been designed for that...AI vehicles talk to each other, all keep to the same posted speed, they all accelerate together and they brake together...Volvo has done already these trials with trucks and cars together, it works flawlessly...by actually going slower(posted speed) traffic moves quicker ...
     
  20. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    6,422
    Likes Received:
    2,186
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    In the case of Uber, they couldn't even meet the target of averaging 13 miles between each human intervention. Waymo and Cruise do much better.

    Humans: 1.18 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles. (2016 figure)

    Self-driving cars: Let's try to figure it out.

    Waymo reports logging 4 million miles. Uber, 2 million. Let's call it 10 million for all of them. Let's not include the one death from Tesla's semi-autopilot. So, one death. That gives self-driving cars a death rate of about 10 times greater than human-driven cars. And, making it even worse, the self-driving cars have deliberately only been rolled out in areas with good weather and streets that have been computer-mapped in detail.

    Granted, that big death rate is based on one incident, so the statistics aren't robust. One can honestly say that the statistics lack enough raw data to be meaningful. One can not honestly say that statistics say self-driving cars are safer.

    According to the statistics, if all cars were self-driving right now, the carnage would be ten times larger. Does the thought of such a blood sacrifice to your ideologocal gods fill you with joy?

    In their current state, self-driving cars are a scam, a sort of tech company dot-com bubble type thing, hyping tech that doesn't really work and doesn't have a business model to support it. And that would be fine, except these tech companies are demanding big gubmint subsidies, wanting the nation retool its highway system to support their boondoggle.

    Go on, build your toys. Just keep them off the road until they really work, and don't pick the taxpayers' pockets.

    Also, consider the hacking.

    Also, consider the increase in traffic. Who is going to pay for downtown parking when they can tell their car to drive back home and park, or circle the block for an hour?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  21. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    and your great grandfather probably protested against those noisy horseless carriages defiantly claiming they'll never replace the horse....
     
    Pax Aeon likes this.
  22. Fenton Lum

    Fenton Lum Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    6,127
    Likes Received:
    1,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We have guns culture for countless avoidable deaths, we don't need self-driving vehicles for that.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,488
    Likes Received:
    16,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    One cool aspect of self driving cars is that they will be talking to each other.

    So, they can work out various strategies for dealing with slow moving vehicles with more information concerning the road ahead, the intent of other vehicles, which cars behind the truck are satisfied with the slower speed, etc. Maybe the first self driving car to pass the truck will slow the truck so others can more easily pass!

    And, of course if the slow moving truck is self driving, it will follow the rules that exist concerning pulling over when they are slowing the progress of too many vehicles.

    I don't know why there would be trouble at traffic lights.

    I have doubts concerning the idea that all roads will be open to fully autonomous cars right off the bat. But, I think it will grow.

    Being in the city, it would sure be nice to have the car negotiate the muli-story parking both above and below ground, hunt for on-street parking, etc. I'd pay something to have a car that would let me get out at the front of the parking facility and then go park itself - like permanent valet parking!
     
  24. Pax Aeon

    Pax Aeon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    7,291
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Female
    `
    The days of the locomotive (iron horse) engineer are numbered.
    `
     
  25. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    13,857
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    113
    if you think of the car sharing groups already in existence you may not need to find a spot to park...you call up a car with an app, it arrives at your door takes you to work and leaves to pick up another person in car share group...the ride home would be the same...
     

Share This Page