What to do when you run out of argumets? Make up a conspiracy, of course!

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Golem, Apr 19, 2018.

  1. logical1

    logical1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    25,426
    Likes Received:
    8,068
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If you are a democrat and you run out of logical argument points, you start name calling. When a democrats starts calling you names, you know you won the argument.
     
  2. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I believe your problem is with the term "minimization". The use of conspiracy theories to replace a rational discussion is "minimization". As a matter of fact, the use of the word "minimization" to avoid discussing the topic is, itself, minimization.

    Your attempt to find "minimization" by simply looking at individual terms is ridiculous. What would indicate actual minimization is the intention to use a term or a phrase to replace a rational debate about a topic. You may find me doing that only in responses that are intentionally sarcastic. Never in a serious discussion.

    Let's see which one of us is using minimization here The point of this thread is that the right makes up conspiracy theories for the purpose of avoiding a debate on the .topics themselves. The OP gives clear examples. So what you would need to do, unless you are using minimization, is to show either that the conspiracies do, in fact, exist (i.e. that they are not fabricated). Or that they are not used in lieu of arguments. Or that they don't make up conspiracies. Three options. You have not done any. And that's the point to discuss. So discuss it!
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  3. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Lol, being addicted to and unconscious of your uses of cognitive distortions is not license to use distortions to excuse distortions.

    Understand, that the INTENTION of the distortion determines its acceptability. Firstly you've made the mistake of thinking left and right matter, second you are trying to minimize the right with a label. Maybe you aren't old enough to realize the right used to accuse the left of making up conspiracy theories. The OP gives examples, but no facts and tries to exclude itself from facts by over generalizing. Give up, clean up your uses of language and INTENT.
     
  4. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    From experience I find that the opposition to the suggestion of conspiracy works as a group to justify complicating the issue and confusing the facts with misinformation. Any lack of accountability rejects their position immediately from the logical mind. Indeed, with cognitive infiltration and many covert agents, which I've seen many times, I've seen the secret group hijack a thread and the presentation of facts with misinfo for pages, just to hide facts in the clutter from those that are actually applying critical thinking.
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The idea that there are no "Conspiracies" is the height of intellectual laziness and just as nonsensical as those who think everything is some conspiracy.
     
  6. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,641
    Likes Received:
    2,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If I assume there are no conspiracies at all, ever..... I will be correct in my analysis of events way more often than if I assume there are.
     
  7. tomander7020

    tomander7020 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,032
    Likes Received:
    470
    Trophy Points:
    83
    You put a lot of thought into that post, and you express yourself well in writing. My only objection is that it's not just the right that is the perpetrator of conspiracy theories, although with Trump leading the way as the new right-wing idol (remember he once supported the Clintons before he changed parties to run as a Republican) it is correct that the extreme right wing is leading in the invention of unfounded conspiracy theories.
     
  8. tomander7020

    tomander7020 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,032
    Likes Received:
    470
    Trophy Points:
    83
    That's a weird post. If you uncritically accept a conspiracy theory, you are a critical thinker? I don't believe that you understand the term "critical thinker." As proof, you imply that being a critical thinker involves ignoring "the simple and the obvious in favour [sic] of the contrived and complex." That opinion comes from somewhere far out in left field.
     
  9. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You have written one of the weirdest messages I have ever read.

    My message says that if the purpose of minimization is to avoid the debate, then it's a fallacy. And you come back with an ad-homiem followed by something that boils down to "oh no no... it's the INTENTION that counts..."

    Huh? What is the difference between the argument that it's "the purpose" or "the intention"? I read your message to see if there was some subtle difference and... none. Read my message again. substitute "purpose" for "intention", if you want (makes absolutely no difference to my argument), and then get back to us if you have anything to contribute.

    As for the rest... of course "right" and "left" are labels with no intrinsic meaning. So what? They still describe two distinct groups in our society. And they are different! Let me know if you are unaware of the differences, and I'll explain them to you.

    The OP mentions specific things like the "one world order" conspiracy (look it up if you don't know what that is), like Global Warming, Trump's lies, white supremacists.... I don't go deep into those matters because that's not the subject or the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to point out how the right avoids discussing them by making up non-existent conspiracies.

    To understand this thread, you do need to have been closely following this forum lately. Apparently you haven't.

    If your interest is to dive more into any one of the subjects I mention, I'll be happy to look up a thread where they are discussed for you. There are many open and currently active. And if there isn't, I'll open one. Let me know which subject, and I'll happily to help you out.
     
  10. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure is...
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I appreciate your comment. My main point is not whether or not only the right can fabricate conspiracy theories. It's that the right does it on every single subject for which they have no rational response.
     
    tomander7020 likes this.
  12. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Messages:
    47,624
    Likes Received:
    48,666
    Trophy Points:
    113
    On is reminded of Hillary paying for a fake Trump dossier and then the Obama operated FBI and CIA and DOJ promoting it as fact without verification in order to illegally get a FISA warrant and renew it several times afterwards in order to 'GET' Trump via any means possible . . . all of which are facts about a combined RINO and Leftist conspiracy. The reasons that leftist are currently howling is because increasingly the proof is surfacing and some of the perpetrators and conspirators are being called to account . . . like Andrew McCabe; and THAT was not supposed . . . to . . . happen. Pore little leftists.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    56,571
    Likes Received:
    16,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your problem is that you assume the rational and evidence based which doesn't agree with your views must be a conspiracy theory...
     
  14. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    If you intend to disable critical thinking by fixing things with a distorted labeling such as left and right, when both are supposed to uphold the constitution and they don’t, talking left and right is nonsense serving no purpose.

    If they won’t do that, they all need replacement. Alter government destructive to unalienable rights. Or abolish it.

    That’s the stuff that needs to control parties. I’ll have nothing to do with one that cannot discuss it rationally.

    Or, why would anyone participate in unlawful politics?
     
  15. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Generalizing conspiracies in the way you propose enable unaccountability.

    Why do politics that are not lawful?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  16. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Come to the the way things are done now
     
  17. Chronocide Fiend

    Chronocide Fiend Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The term “conspiracy theory” describes a flawed methodology of arriving at conclusions that is not empirical and is ultimately circular. Where you don’t trust something because it looks fishy to you- but the only reason it looks fishy to you is that you don’t trust it. When you’re a conspiracy theorist, your evidence only looks like evidence if you already have your conclusion. And any contrary evidence is just proof of the conspiracy. See also: confirmation bias, unfalsifiable hypothesis, etc.

    A conspiracy may in fact exist in some cases, but the conspiracy theory methodology is useless for actually unearthing one because it is a methodology that will pretty much always reach the same conclusion. Just because you’re heading north doesn’t mean your fake compass isn’t a fake compass.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
    tomander7020 likes this.
  18. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well conspiracy theory is theoretical people often confused Conspiracy Theory with delusion or even paranoid delusion. The belief that there was more people involved in the JFK assassination is a conspiracy theory because there is evidence to support it. The belief that little green men are secretly operating a shadow government is a paranoid delusion.

    The fact that this Russia probe hasn't brought forth the slightest shred of evidence is evidence that it was made up and when you have people making up a false allegation that is the definition of a conspiracy.

    So they have absolutely nothing and they will probably continue to have nothing yet they are saying they had something if they had something they would have probably impeached Trump by now. He's universally unliked by Democrats and Republicans alike they would have no problem presenting charges if they had any.

    At this point I don't buy that they have a damn thing. I think it's wishful thinking to think that they do.
     
  19. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    well I would say that that's apt because this thread is pretty devoid of content. All you really doing is saying that to people who don't agree with you are foil hat wearing lunatics because you have no argument. Your Op was nothing but an ad hominem. That isn't the very smart way to start out a thread. Seems like you don't know much about logic.
     
  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course my post reminds you of that. It's about: fake conspiracies. How can it not remind you of other fake conspiracies?
     
  21. Vet1966

    Vet1966 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    2,621
    Likes Received:
    1,756
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    On those rare occassions that I can understand what you're saying, you are worth the read -- You are so funny.
     
  22. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It serves the purpose of differentiating groups. But why are you so fixated on that? So what?

    If they won’t do that, they all need replacement. Alter government destructive to unalienable rights. Or abolish it.

    And why didn't you answer the question.... It's not a trick question. I was really interested in knowing.

    Ok.... now you're starting to not make any sense...
     
  23. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nope. It has nothing to do with being "lunatics". It has everything to do with not having arguments and trying to hide the fact using conspiracy theories.

    If I accused the right of being lunatics that would let them off the hook too easily.

    Your strawman didn't work...
     
  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The argument you can't defeat is the one I present. If they had something Trump would be impeached. So they clearly have nothing.

    I don't know what you think a straw man fallacy is but the objective is not to work but to create a easy target to defeat and pretend you're defeating someone else's argument.

    The OP in this thread is a straw man you're misrepresenting something as a conspiracy theory.

    The idea that the president is involved in any Shady underhanded things is by definition a conspiracy theory. The burden of proof is on you or the people claiming that he's involved and some underhanded crap. So far you have failed.
     
  25. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,517
    Likes Received:
    18,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's your "argument"? I would never have guessed because it's so absurd. Not to mention absolutely off-topic.

    Obviously he hasn't been impeached because the investigations are still in progress. And there is, of course, the fact that impeaching him is a process which can only be initiated by a very dishonest and partisan Republican Congress.

    Now... what does that have to do with this thread?

    What are you talking about? It's not even a "conspiracy". Whatever "shady things" Trump did, he did them himself.

    I don't know if he's involved in shady things. Evidence seems to point that way. But, again, the investigation is in progress. However, there is quite of bit information that has been leaked and is very much worth discussing. And, this is the point of this thread: Trump fanatics refuse to discuss it. They just brush it off as a "conspiracy"
     

Share This Page