What is the bottom line why Socialism is really being pushed around the globe?

University admissions officers adjust the value of grades on a per high school basis, knowing that high schools are not equal and thus grades at those high schools are not equal. Thus going to a good high school is an advantage - whether or not the kid craps out with parents who are uninterested in education. I agree that having good parents makes a real difference. But, that does not mean that the quality of school is irrelevant.

As I remember, you ignored the fact that kids (and families, if the family cares and has money) have to place a tens of thousands of dollars bet. Thus they have to figure the odds of whether they might crap out and thus end up with huge debt and no degree.

You did NOT address that.

 

That doesn't address anything I said. Of course I agree that parenting can make a difference.

Wow. That isn't even SLIGHTLY a rational analysis.

What makes you think American kids all have parents who can pay room and board at some university???

And, your last couple sentences are even crazier.

 

lol. Nobody takes the right wing seriously about the law, Constitutional or otherwise. Both terms are in our Constitution; promote and provide, in reference to the general welfare but not the common defense.

 

If your kids are up around Valedictorian level (and almost any kid can be, with work and application), they will have good access to universities, regardless of which school they went to. You can't expect 'above average' at a bad school to do it. You have to excel.

I did not ignore your 'bet' idea at all. I mentioned it at least once. I pointed out that only idiot losers drop out of college (obviously, since they know it means they'll end up with no degree and a huge debt), so why on earth would it be a 'bet'? That's like saying parents have no control over how their kids turn out, and it's down to dumb luck. If you raise your kids right, with a strong work ethic and the ability to commit, there's almost no chance of them dropping out.

 

Room and board AT HOME, not at college. Few families can afford to pay for college accommodation, and that minority which can are not the subject of this discussion.

 

It's crazy to help your kids get started in life?

 

I have friends who have been involved in this.

In one case, the parents absolutely refuse to give any financial information and are not interested in emancipating their kid. Thus, there is no possibility of a loan, and they have no money.

In another case, the kid just stated flat out, "I know what happens to people who borrow that kind of money. Their DEAD!"

And, we're talking about the kids, not what their parents did or did not do.

Your idea that anybody who enters can get a degree is nonsense, obviously. Check the numbers.

Also, those who have never known anyone who got a degree really doesn't have any idea how the employment opportunity comes about - it looks to the kid like a crazy sales pitch.

 

Every kid is subject to this discussion. Anything else would be something other than equal opportunity, right?

Not everyone lives within commute distance of a college that accepts them.

 

We're talking about equal opportunity.

And, you're proposing ways some kid can earn tuition before going to college, or ways the parent can better their position so they can pay for college. In other words, you're invoking fairy land rules.

 

1) I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Parents 'emancipate' their kids by shaping them into hard working, responsible, educated, adults. That's the ONLY way to produce a self-sufficient adult. No idea how or why you're equating emancipation with money/loans.

2) At no point did I say that everyone who starts college finishes it. I said that completion is determined by the child's upbringing, and that ANY parent can produce kids who complete what they start. It's a personal choice (on the part of parents) to neglect such things. The point is that elective failure to complete (ie, dropping out) has nothing to do with equality of access to education. It's a function of failed parenting, which is a function of CHOICE.

 

Where did I propose kids earn tuition before going to college? You really make stuff up, don't ya!

On the contrary, leaving important parenting to chance (as you seem to be advocating for) is invoking fairly land rules. I'm saying the precise opposite - I'm saying that parents should be doing everything in their power to set their children up for self-realised financial security in adulthood ... and it starts at birth. No 'Luck Fairies' involved .. just sheer dedication and 100% commitment from parents. Not MONEY, but effort and commitment.

For egs, if your kids aren't for college, make sure they go to trade school. If they're interested in business, do whatever you can to get them started, even if it means working 7 days a week to get them off the ground. Regardless of which road they take, for any of these options to be successful, you first need to have been parenting towards responsibility and a strong work ethic - from day 1. ALL OF THIS IS FREE. It takes nothing but effort and commitment.

 

Emancipation is the point at which the child becomes a fully independent person. Each state has an age where that happens automatically. Most states allow parents to emancipate their child under various circumstances or for various reasons.

Emancipation might help a kid who has parents who can't support him. It allows the kid to state to various agencies that they will not be receiving parental support for living expenses, tuition, etc. Perhaps you've never seen financial aid applications for college. They include an evaluation of expected parental contribution. As I pointed out before, some parents won't even allow the financial aid application to be completed, because they would be required to sign papers stating their own financial situation. Beyond that, parents may not be able to meet what colleges expect parents to meet.

The issue we were talking about has nothing to do with upbringing. Yet you keep harping on that!

It has to do with the fact that a kid who doesn't have parental financial support must make a GIGANTIC bet on outcome in order to start receiving the required loans for college expenses including tuition. Kids from families under serious financial stress don't really have any way of evaluating such risk.

 

No, you're still WAY in the weeds on this topic. Money very definitely is involved. Even kids with parental support are coming out of school with tens of thousands of dollars of debt. Those who didn't make it still owe huge amounts of financial aid, and have no degree.

That is a risk and it falls heavily on those without parental support - it is NOT even slightly equal opportunity.

 

From my perspective you are off in the weeds. I keep trying to drag you back to the essential core of the thing: The end result of equal opportunity - IOW the OUTCOME - is determined by personal choices, not money.

In terms of education, it's all in the upbringing. Kids excelling at school is a product of parental effort and commitment - not money. Kids dropping out of college is a product of lack of parental effort and commitment - not lack of money.

ALL of it is personal choice .. and in the case of children and teenagers, the personal choices made by their parents. Free education is provided to all, but it's up to individual families to make the most of it. The point of it being free is just that - it's there for whoever wants to use it to their advantage.

There is no inequality present at all - there is only personal failure. A completely different beast.

 

Yeah well, life isn't fair. What were their parents doing on their way home from the hospital? Did they do like my wife and I, and stop off to start a college education fund? I'm guessing they didn't, so...

 

BUT THEIR PARENTS COULD HAVE RAISED KIDS WHO WOULD NOT DROP OUT!!!!! They CHOSE not to do that, they did not have it forced upon them.

How are you unable to distinguish between personal choices and institutionalised discrimination? You can't really be serious in not knowing the difference. It's spectacularly obvious.

 

Look ... I'll say it again just because I'm starting to think maybe you really CAN'T see the difference.

If you fail to guide your hardworking and academically capable (both a result of close parenting) children to taking degrees in fields with plenty of jobs and high pay, so that they can easily pay off those student loans, you have simply been a bad parent. That is a CHOICE!!!!!!! You COULD have steered your kids towards high paying STEM degrees, and supported the extra study needed to get there, but you chose to let your poorly guided and poorly prepared (all your fault, btw) child chose some idiotic degree in a field with no jobs.

Nothing ... WHATSOEVER ... to do with inequality.

 

I do not see it as adequate to totally ignore the fact that parental support is massively unequal.

I don't see opportunity equality as a game. We actually NEED success.

Futuere economic competition will be based on education to an ever 8ncreasing degree.

The US has a very small % of the brains. Blowing off education by saying, "Oh well, the parents sucked. BFD." jUst does not cut it.

Besides, what is the point of telling these kids that they do not get an equal shot, because their parents are crap?

 

Maybe the point is simply reality. If you're 5 foot tall, you're probably not going to be playing in the NBA. It is what it is, and a meritocracy doesn't care whether your parents sucked or not. You have to rise above those inadequacies, or you don't.

You want an equal shot? Maybe in fantasy land, but not in reality.

 

We certainly not going to make everything equally easy to attain for everyone. I agree with that.

However, we are a long ways away from that

In the case of education, America needs far more success stories.

We are not going to maintain our standard of living while we fall behind in the one resource that is becomming od central importance: educated bains.

And, that includes those taking a vocational direction - a direction that also sees rapid change. We can not aford to leave people behind like we did with workers in auto, steel, and coal. One recent study proposes that wage earners have not seen a significant buying power increase since 1968! Continuing education can be at least part of the solution of not leaving workers behind.

 

1) EXACTLY ... parental support is massively unequal. That's where the inequality lies, NOT in institutions!!!! Again, and more importantly, every parent makes a choice upon the birth of a child .. to step up or not. It requires no wealth or genius to step up, it takes only determination. If a parent chooses NOT to step up, it has zero to do with institutionalised inequalities (which don't exist). The tools are there for the taking, for all of us. That is absolute equality .. there can be nothing more equal than providing the same tools to everyone, to use as they see fit.

2) If we need success, then we (as parents) will take the raising of responsible and hard working children seriously. It comes from us, not from the world. Unless you think it's reasonable to let the world raise your kids?

3) If we DON'T keep reminding parents that the buck stops with them, nothing will change.

4) The point in telling kids is that they will learn not to make the same mistake with their own children. Do you want to see improvement in these areas, or don't you? How do you think Asians do it? Not be pretending it's someone else's responsibility to raise their kids.

 

Education is currently absolutely equally available to ALL, in the west. What we then do with it (as individuals) is up to us, not to govt. Govt cannot force people to take education seriously. But perhaps that's what you want? Maybe prison sentences for parents who fail to get their kids past a certain cut off?

Point is, I can see you are interested in seeing better educational outcomes in America. Why then, do you resist the actual solution so vociferously?

 

Yeah well, get rid of the department of education and stop sending all that money to higher education where all they do is put students in debt by promising them that it'll be greater later. Those diplomas are worth about as much as soiled toilet paper.

That is, if you're interested in doing something about education.

Vocational education is great! I love it to death, and that's not going to come from going to harvard to get a degree in carpentry. That's going to come from applying for a job as an assistant carpenter and getting paid to learn how to be a carpenter, while also proving to future employers that you're not just some *** in a classroom learning about how hammers are a product of the patriarchy, and that anybody can swing a hammer with equal precision and force, when the fact is that we really aren't equal.

You can say that America needs more success stories, and I would agree with you. How are we going to get there from here? It sure the hell isn't by doing what we've been doing.

 

Not all can do as such.

 

Yeah so worthless that you won't get that position because it requires a degree...