70 years NATO birthday ...

I had not seen those before. I stand corrected.

 

Lol ... tell me, what have youi taken before you wrote this nonsene? I want to have this stuff too!

Hardly ever read such an ignorance of FACTS in this forum ... and I read muich bullcrap here!

 

Cold war beats a real one and NATO keeps Putin in check.

 

Everything that I wrote there is true.

You are free to try to prove me wrong of course. But you won't succeed.

 

I agree with your first point, but nato expansion is the cause.

 

Really? So you are seriously of the opinion that it is true? OK ... then I'll take the trouble and go into the details:

1.)
"Our friendliness toward Saudi Arabia is based on the fact that western society needs their oil to run."

Fact: Oil always plays a role in the ME, but there is more to the Saudis here! The Saudis are heavily dependent on the US military ... both in terms of protecting the Saudis against serious enemies, but also in terms of the enormous upgrade of the Saudis. This is about "big business" of the US defense industry = dozens of billions of dollars!
In itself, the Saudis are also a close, local and strategically important ally of the US in the ME and also partially global. You are the local enemy of the Iranians and thus automatically a friend of the USA!
But did you know, for example, that without the Saudis, the USSR could not be defeated by Reagan? Thanks to the Saudis, who kept the oil price artificially low, the USSR had economically catastrophic losses in foreign exchange revenues in the oil business ... In short, the Soviets ran out of money and which led to the collapse of the Eastern bloc!

Summary: There is a very close and interdependent relationship between the US and the Saudis for decades. American core values such as democracy, human rights, the rule of law, etc. then play no role at all! When someone in Iran is brutally executed again for Islamic Sharia, then the Iranians are evil again ... 2 weeks later, in Saudi Arabia, what the Sharia uses just like Iran, and someone is executed just as beastly, then it is no matter! Conclusion: US hypocrisy and I am right, you not!

2.)
"We did our best to push the Philippines towards democracy.

And we succeeded at least partially. They are far from ideal democracy, but they are in fact a democracy. And if not for us, the Philippines would not be a democracy. "

Fact: The Philippines have been your colony for a long time and after you released them into a degree of independence after the WW-2, for many decades you had brought clear dictators like Marcos to power and kept you in power ... just because they were taut anti-communists.
Yes ... I know it was cold ... but that is just a stupid excuse for actively supporting and maintaining the power of a dictator and his oppression and plundering of the people!
And after that ... the bare and pure truth is that you were thrown out of the Philippines after the fall of Marcos you supported! The Senate of the Philippines had forbidden you to keep bases around 25 years ago!
So please do not tell nonsense that you had something to do with the democratic development of the Philippines.
It is only about 2 years since you have been working together with the hilippines, because China's behavior has changed the geopolitical and local situation.
And what the current Philippine president is doing on evil things, interested once again nobody in Washington ...
And again hypocrisy of the USA, because democracy, rule of law and Core Values do not matter ... in someone you need!

3.)
"The US has nothing to do with that coup."

Fact: You remember Hillary's famous 55,000 hacked emails? Funny ... their content says something completely different! The coup was subsequently legitimized by the Obama administration because the democratic, overthrown government was unwelcome.
So again hypocrisy of the US and we legitimize a military regime that has the power today and the country completely ruined and drifted into the abyss ... or what do you think, why the people from Honduras since the long march to the Mexican .Amerikansichen border made, why Trump upset and continues to support the regime?
Facts ... Facts ... Facts!

Should I "kill" the rest of your post with the facts and the truth?
I think that will be wasted time, because alone to what I call above and what is FACT, you will deny everything again without proof!

 

The US could make money selling arms to lots of evil dictatorships. What sets the Saudis apart from those other evil dictatorships is their oil.

Opposing Iran is indeed a point in Saudi Arabia's favor.

But Iran is not a grave threat to the west's existence. The loss of Saudi oil on the other hand would be a serious problem for all of the west.

So like I said, it's all about their oil.

I agree.

No. I was correct to say that we treat Saudi Arabia differently because of their oil.

I accept that Saudi opposition to Iran is an additional factor.

Not a stupid excuse. We had to prevent the Soviets from taking over the planet.

And we did our best to curb Marcos' worst excesses and push the country towards democracy.

We might well have reached a deal with them to keep the bases had we tried to do so. But since the Cold War was over, it just wasn't worth the trouble.

It isn't nonsense. We did our best to curb Marcos' worst excesses and to push the country towards democracy.

When we face a grave need (which we did face during the Cold War), our core values do take second place to our very survival.

But our values still matter. We still did our best to curb Marcos' worst excesses and to push the Philippines towards democracy.

And although it is a highly flawed democracy, we did succeed in making them become a democracy.

How so?

You're trying to have it both ways. You're accusing us of interfering with other nations, but here you are suggesting that we should have involved ourselves in Honduran internal affairs.

Why should we have opposed this coup? How was it any of our business?

There is no hypocrisy in us refusing to get involved in Honduran internal affairs.

It is proper that untrue claims are denied.

As for proof, our lack of involvement in the Honduran coup is proved by the absence of any evidence that we were involved.

Our efforts to curb Marcos and encourage Philippine democracy can be seen in the obituaries of our former ambassador:

"Alarmed by rumblings that troops loyal to Mr. Marcos might resort to force rather than relinquish office amid competing inaugurations, the White House sent Mr. Bosworth to read the Philippine president a message dictated by President Reagan -- that the White House looked forward to Mr. Marcos's 'working out a scenario for a transition government' and would welcome him and his family if they left to live in the United States.

Within hours, the Marcos family was taken from the grounds of Malacanang Palace on a United States Air Force helicopter and flown 40 miles northwest to Clark Air Base.

'We were trying to help restore democracy in the Philippines, and Stephen wound up playing a key role in that historic transition,' Secretary of State John Kerry said in a statement on Thursday."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/09/w...-helped-oust-ferdinand-marcos-dies-at-76.html


"In the book 'In Our Image: America's Empire in the Philippines,' by Stanley Karnow, Bosworth was regarded as one of the American officials who were reportedly tapped to 'eliminate the Marcoses' following the pull-out of US support to the Marcos administration in the aftermath of the death of opposition leader Senator Benigno Aquino Jr., a sagging economy and a growing discontent against the regime.

It was reported that on February 23, 1986, Bosworth relayed the message of US Secretary George Schultz telling Marcos that his 'time was up.'

Three days later, on February 26, 1986, it was the US ambassador who said to have arranged the flight of the Marcoses out of the country."

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/134548/us-ambassador-to-ph-during-edsa-revolt-stephen-bosworth-dies

 

Conclusion:
In Saudi Arabia, the oil counts ... but it is also the geo-strategic situation and situation in the ME, which is why the US with regard to Saudi Arabia crap on democracy, human rights, rule of law, etc.!

And that is the main problem and the great hypocrisy of the USA, which were swallowed in the past, but not anymore ... neither from enemies, nor from friends of the USA!
As soon as ... I call it the situation ... for its own US interests seemingly necessary to bring even the bloodiest dictatorships to power and / or to keep them in power = helping to suppress the people. .. then these core values of the US are completely irrelevant.

Yes ... I am also a realist and live in no pink "My Little Pony dream world" and yes, all the others do that more or less intensively. BUT ... if you Americans then at the same time where you support such bastards, start to accuse with others who are not your friend for disrespect and suppression of democracy and human rights, and being bastards etc. ... then you make yourself to be ridiculous, implausible and you are just hypocritical idiots!

Let's take the comparison of the war in Syria and Yemen ... in Syria is beaten on the Bastard Assad and the Russians, but in Yemen where (poison gas aside) exactly the same, but the other way around happens, silence of the United States. And when the Democrats decide something here because of and against Yemen and the Saudis, they are still being labeled as traitors by far right wingers in the US!

But as a whole, you have a hard time with increasing hatred againt the USA in the world!
Let's take Iran, where you actively exterminated the legitimate and democratically elected president by coup and then brought that bloody bastard of Shah to power and supported him in his oppression of the people.
Does it really surprise the Americans that the US was already hated by most Iranians during the 1979 revolution against the Shah? And if ... ín meantime it's also proven ... the CIA abuses the US Embassy in Theran as HQ for a counter-coup which failed and that comes out and then the Embassy is also unlawfully stormed by the uproarious mob, etc., then this should not wondering any Americans with a little bit of brain in the head ... and no one with a little bit of brain in his head is allowed to insult only the Iranians because of the occupation and hostage taking, without pointing their finger at the CIA too for being guilty!

 

Much of the rest of the western world shares our hypocrisy in supporting Saudi Araba.

Not completely irrelevant. We continue to press for democracy even when we feel that we have to support a dictator.

And post-Cold War, we do not feel that we have to support very many dictators.

There is a substantial difference between "the US supporting a dictatorship reluctantly when we have no other choice, while continuing to press for democracy in the background" and "evil regimes being evil".

Yemen isn't even remotely the same.

Syria is all about Assad perpetrating horrific crimes against humanity and massacring his own people.

In Yemen, the US and Saudi Arabia are defending against the twin threats of terrorism and Iranian aggression.

Of course. We are fighting a just war in Yemen.

I don't think so. People who hate us are easily killed by our military.

I'm a big fan of dronestriking suspected terrorists, and I am eagerly awaiting the deployment of our first fleets of unmanned bombers in a few more years.

That isn't even remotely what happened.

First, the main force behind the coup was the Iranian clerics (the same ones who rule Iran today). Outsiders helped of course. But the Iranian clerics were the main backers of the coup.

Second, even among outsiders to Iran, the US role was minimal. The main source of outside backing for the coup was the UK, who were justifiably upset over Iran stealing their oil.

Third, just as always when we are compelled to back a dictator, we did our best to curb his worst abuses, and we pressed for as many democratic reforms as we could.

Iran's crimes are unforgivable. Maybe someday the US Air Force will bring Iran to justice.

 

Correct ... some of the others do more, others lesser. I can only speak for my country and here we the case that we deliver ... for example ... only wepaons where we are forced to do due to multi-national issues or other backgrounds due to laws and international laws etc.

But we stopped for example the sales of 48 Eurofighters aka "Typhoons" to Saudi Arabia due to Kashogi and that Saudi Arabia will ever get any Leopard 2 tank ... where they nearly beg for to get as replacement for the M1 Abrams ... is more as unlikely.

But much more as what the US reaction is, who has only the Dollar Symbols in the eyes like in a cartoon in matter wof weapon deals with them!

Sorry, only results count and no trials and more or less softy pressing ... and why do you support such bastards at all please?

this is not an only accuse to the US, because as told, others do the same as the US, but when the US in same breath blames other dictators and bastards who are not friend of the US, then does the US bullcrap!

Wrong! The same appears to the others too ... You support Saudi Arabia since nearly 100 years now, intensive after WW-2 with no results in matter of democracy ... others do the same with their dictators and say they have also no choice due to their interests.

It is very the same ...you call the Houthis to be terroists. Strange ... the Russians do tell the same about the rebels in Syria and I mean not telling about IS, where all agree that they are terrorist scum.

The term terrorist or not terrorist is in meantime totally ireelevant! Look ...
n Syria, Turkey is openly supporting the extremely Islamist rebels of Al Nusra, who are friends with Al Qaeda. Why, these are honorable freedom fighters for Erdogan! For the Russians and Assad it is terrorists ...
The Iran-backed Lebanese Hezbollah, which clearly helps Assad. For Assad, the Russians and Iran are the honorable people ... for Turkey, the US and Israel it is terrorists.
The US is working very closely with the YPG Kurdish militia in the Kamof against the IS and for the US are the real hero ... for Turkey these are all evil terrorists.
And in Yemen ... ask how outside of Saudi Arabia, the US and the Yemeni government the Houthi are rated!

Conclusion: To blame someone to be a terrorist means nothing and is irrelevant today ,.. and if being or not, is only a individual point of view!

sorry, but so what? Maybe you are fighting onm the wrong side? Maybe you support the real bad and evil side?

Sorry ... but these times have been completely over since your total failure in Iraq ... after showing a criminal attack and then total incompetence and ignorance!
The world has changed dramatically since 2003 ... largely at your disadvantage, even if many Americans do not want to believe and stubbornly deny.
Even your alleged, great superiority in terms of military, is just a myth ... and that also applies to the unmanned weapons systems. Sorry, even your enemies are working on these things and they already have just as much and equally good systems in use and in development!

But right now I do not want to start any weapon system discussions here at this point, who has more or better systems on whatever, etc. Such a discussion is pointless.

Please first inform yourself about Mossadegh and why he has put him out of office in Iran!
And then please inform yourself about the Shah regime and how it has massively brutally suppressed any form of opposition with the help of the CIA. Even if somebody said that he wanted to have a democracy modeled on the USA instead of the Shah and to stay a friend of the USA ... wooops! 10 years in prison for exposing the Shah and anti-state activities + torture to know other participants!
The only ones to whom the Shah did not rantraute were the religious extremists who then became the mullahs ... and if they are the only ones who can form any kind of opposition, then they also get support and can convince people of their idiotic views!
Sorry, the USA scored an own goal back then!

Which crimes? Call those who were committed by Iran!
Anyway ... Iran has survived 40 years of Fatal USA ... rather die from the US dinosaurs who stubbornly see only guilt in Iran, no blame for the US and only for revenge because of the embassy occupation udn the hostage take, without the to know or to know other factors!

 

Profits from making and selling weapons are honorable profits. Weapons help us defend ourselves from those who would harm us.

That is incorrect. Motive is very important.

We support Saudi Arabia because we need their oil.

We supported dictators during the Cold War because Communism was even worse.

No. There is no similarity between "a democracy trying to survive" and "an evil dictatorship just being evil".

No. I call "al-Qa'ida in the Arabian Peninsula" terrorists:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_the_Arabian_Peninsula

The Houthis are part of the other threat in Yemen: Iranian aggression.

Russia is lying about Assad's victims. They are ordinary civilians and are not terrorists in any way.

It's not irrelevant. Terrorists deliberately harm innocent people.

al-Nusra are terrorists.

Hisballah are terrorists.

The Kurds are not terrorists. Turkey lies about the Kurds because Turkey hopes to commit another genocide.

The Houthi are not terrorists. They are however spearheading Iranian aggression against Yemen.

It's not irrelevant. Terrorists deliberately harm civilians. That sets them apart from non-terrorists.

So it is reasonable to condemn people for opposing the war in Yemen.

No. We are fighting a just war in Yemen.

I was not aware that we had failed to topple Saddam Hussein. Does he still rule in Baghdad?

In any case, no. Our ability to dronestrike suspected terrorists is undiminished.

And our fleets of unmanned stealth bombers are in development and will come online in a few years.

We deny it because we don't see any particular change that seems noteworthy.

No myth. We really do have these weapons.

Which of our enemies has stealth bombers (much less unmanned stealth bombers)?

I know that the reason why the UK opposed him was because he was stealing the UK's oil.

The US didn't help the Shah perpetrate these abuses. The US pressed to curb these abuses.

That's not our doing. The Shah did such things against our wishes.

We are not in any way responsible for Iran's crimes.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_embassy_bombing_in_Beirut
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombings
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_embassy_annex_bombing_in_Beirut
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_hostage_crisis
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_bombing

I'm not proposing that we completely destroy Iran.

I am just proposing that we have the US Air Force give them a good thorough pummeling. Something of a magnitude that inflicts as much suffering on them as they have inflicted on us sounds about right.

 

5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO OK.

 

Sure … but selling weapons to bastards are everything, but honorable, eh?

In real world not. There is such a nice phrase in work certificates:

"He / she always has the motive to give his best performance" ... means grade "F". Why? Only results count and that is imme rso in life, no matter what!

As I still told … American hypocrisy and bad excuse for accepting bloody dictators and supporting them and holding them in power!

Wrong … there is a similarity between “a hypocrisy democracy who rates theirself as the best ever but who gives, if “necessary” a crap on democracies elsewhere” … “and dictatorship who does try to hide dictatorship with some democratic phrases”

You are, because you created your own enemy!


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_embassy_bombing_in_Beirut

Bullcrap … a crime yes, but to install the HQ for a counter coup in the embassy is a same way crime!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombings

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_embassy_annex_bombing_in_Beirut

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847

Was Hezbollah and not Iran … even Iran supports the Hezbollah of course. But to reverse your own argumentation:

The Hezbollah did such things against the will of Iran as ther Shah against the US will, eh?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_hostage_crisis

Hezbollah again … but not only, also others!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_bombing

And again the Hezbollah and not Iran…

Start a war and it will become a greater disaster for the US as Korea, Vietnam and Iraq together!

Again … you miss that the world has changed since 2003 and the criminal American attack on Iraq, for what Bush Jr. belongs into jail like the Nazis for the charge point of starting a war!

If you want to have a world war 3, then do it!
And … even if you want to set only such a sign … any counter reaction of them is then of course a terror act, eh? Lol!

 

They're our ally. We sell weapons to our allies.

Maybe if we are grading whether someone has learned a subject or not.

When assessing moral issues like culpability, intent matters. That's why murder and manslaughter are considered two different crimes.

We didn't make this world. We just try to survive in it and make it a better place.

If there were not so many evil dictators to oppose us, we wouldn't need to make so many compromises to oppose them.

That is incorrect. There is no similarity whatsoever. We are not responsible for the evils of this world. Evil dictators, on the other hand, are responsible for much of the evil in this world.

I mean the terrorists in Yemen are AQAP.

From your article:
"A major consequence of the war is to push the Houthis and Iran and Hezbollah closer together. U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Nikki Haley underscored that point, perhaps unintentionally, when she presented compelling evidence of Iranian support for the Houthis missile attacks on Saudi and Emirati targets last week. With their own cities under constant aerial bombardment, the Houthis are firing missiles at Riyadh and Abu Dhabi, with Tehran’s technological assistance. The war costs Tehran a few million dollars per month, while it costs Riyadh $6 billion per month."

Because they are busy fighting Iran. The Saudis used to focus on AQAP before the Iranians moved in.

No. Because Assad's victims are all innocent civilians who have nothing to do with terrorism.

No need for any shame or silence. I'm already aware of Al Nusra, and aware that they changed their name.

To answer your question, Al-Nusra / Hayat Tahrir al-Sham are supported by Assad and supported by Russia.

That is incorrect. The fact that terrorists target civilians (and non-terrorists do not) is highly relevant.

They are backed by Iran.

I am not familiar with whatever event you are referring to. It's certainly not something that the US did however.

That population is perpetrating an aggression against our Saudi allies.

We toppled Saddam. We set up a democracy. We went home.

In retrospect, setting up the democracy was not worth our blood and treasure. I much prefer the Libya model where we just go in and destroy everything, then go home and leave a wasteland behind.

But nonetheless, we toppled Saddam. We set up a democracy. And then we went home.

It was not worth the trouble that we went to to set up a democracy there. After catching Saddam in 2003 we should have just killed him immediately and come straight home, leaving a wasteland behind like we did with Libya.

All indications are that our unmanned bomber program is on target.

Our perception of reality is just fine.

I know for a fact that our stealth bombers are completely undetectable.

I am already fully informed. What I already posted are the facts.

I have already investigated perfectly.

Wrong. The only one who is responsible for Iran's crimes is Iran.

We did no such thing.

And countering the Iranian criminals would not have been a crime had we actually done it.

Hizballah was acting on Iranian orders.

They are one and the same.

That's just silly. If we bomb Iran, then we bomb Iran. There will be no disaster (for us at least).

If Iran attacks Israel in response to our bombardment, then Israel will join in with the bombardment of Iran.

That's because it hasn't.

More silliness.

Even more silliness.

Bombing Iran will not result in WWIII.

Whether it is terrorism or not will depend on whether they target civilians or not.

 

So bastards are your ally ... nice!

But you do no grading!

Wrong, you created the world as we live in a large part ... in good and in bad!

Wrong ... if you support the evil, then you are responsible too!

So, 2 different Al Qaeda you think? Lol ... and you know that there is for example also IS present too ... as the IS is present in Afghnaistan too?

And? Constant bombing of the cities ... and then Houthi shot back with some help of Iran. What is there wromng again? Nothing!

Wrong! the reverse is true! Al Qaeda was for them a minor target, but the Huothi from the beginning, simply because Shia Muslims like Iranians ... and this far before Iran helps them! Cause and effect!

An impudent lie only! Yes, he bombs civilians too, also with intention and any dead civilians don't make him any sleepless night ... but he fights also tebels and terrorists

LOOOOOOOOOL!!!! Are supported by Assad and Russia! You make my day ... a more fat lie is not possible! They are backed primary by Turkey, get facts please!

So, the Contra Rebels once in Nicaragua were terrorists too then by this description. OK ...

And? You back their enemies - the Saudi scum!

No, but your so called ally! And you from time to time too with some drones

Pure propaganda lie ... they react on supression of this so calle dlly of your ally.

You begin an illegal and criminal war, showed incompetence, messed up the country, killed thousands and thousand innocent civilians, and went out with a lame mission accomplished with the result of raise of IS! Well done... democracy set up? Where? Lol ... in your dreams maybe!

And Lybia is the other example:supporting whatever claims to fight the Gadhafi and no matter who they are at least ... heloing to mess up the country totally with the war you support and fought, simply because your hateagainst Gadhafi ... and as soon as he was killed, you moved away and let the mess clean up others.

Typical American evil behavior in this world ... being strong in military, but weak in everything else and incompetent to finish the complete job, you have started!

Next time stay out and let the people do their job internally!

See above ... + if you would have leace dirextly, Iraq would now be a province of Iran! This you won't let happen and so you stayed with al the incompetence as explained!

As those of others are too!


And for the rest ... the same in content! American impudence, lack of realities and being incompetnet.

You remember the entry ban of Trump once? Also against Iran with reason to prevent entry of terrorist. Well ... where is Hezbollah again sitting? Lebanon! Is Lebanon on any list? No.!

So ... the by Iran paid terrorists can still enter and are not in ban list. This example shows it all!

 

We have no choice. We need their oil.

Grades are for assessing how much a student has learned, not for assessing moral culpability.

We are not responsible for the bad.

We oppose the evil.

Assad and Russia leave the terrorists in Syria alone.

Assad and Russia focus solely on massacring civilians.

Turkey may well support the terrorists in Syria too.

But Assad and Russia also support the terrorists in Syria.

Yes. I believe so.

We have never intentionally bombed a hospital, with our drones or by any other means.

Come on now. Don't be silly.

Our only mistake was staying to rebuild instead of going home and leaving a wasteland.

Islamic State was created by Bashar al-Assad.

We left a democracy behind when we departed Iraq. What they did with the democracy that we left them is a different question.

As I say, we should not have bothered.

The perfect war. We should have followed the Libya model in Iraq.

It's not too late for us to follow the Libya model in Iran and Syria.

The job was to destroy Kadaffy. That job was completed.

Hardly evil. We made the world a much better place when we destroyed Kadaffy.

No.

If Iran becomes too much of a problem for us then we can just go and destroy them and leave a wasteland behind too.

Have you never heard the phrase "create a desert and call it peace"?

It really works.

I am not aware of any other countries that have (or are near to producing) stealth bombers, much less unmanned stealth bombers.

Is there any evidence that other countries are doing so?

 

NATO served it function. When the USSR broke a part and the Warsaw Pact disbanded it was mission accomplished for NATO. It was time for NATO to go the same way as other cold war pacts, CENTO and SEATO went. It should have been disbanded back then.

Besides, the U.S. and other NATO countries broke our agreement with Gorbachev not to expand NATO past the German border if he allowed the peaceful unification of East and West Germany. We are the aggressors here. If Europe wants to keep NATO or some form of it, fine. We need to get out. NATO has become too big and too unwieldy.