Socialism or Capitalism

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Texan, Mar 4, 2019.

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Socialism or Capitalism?

  1. Socialism

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  2. Capitalism

    30 vote(s)
    78.9%
  1. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Only morally sound position? So, if someone is born with a genetic defect redering them with a low IQ and behavioral problems I do hope there are enough well meaning philanthropic objectivists willing to support their moral defects.
    Seriously though, this obsession everyone receiving welfare is necessarily a parasite is anything but objective.
    As to demanding ‘unearned’ access to the surplus, to suggest everyone receiving welfare has demanded it is another Randian absurdity.
    Additionally what makes you imagine all surplusses are produced only by private industry?
    Again I’m reminded of the Wall St parasites who held their hands out for billions of tax payer dollars after they’d triggered the Glocal Financial Crisis when they should have gone to jail.
    Here we are again playing the stock standard Randian game of black and white. As to luck I’m so glad I live in Australia, a mixed economy where there’s an efficient public health system and public pharmaceutical benefits scheme. I have no objection to having supported these all my working life given the benefits received and the cost efficiencies generated by Gov’t health authorities being able to make enormous bulk buying saving when purchasing drugs and medical technology.
     
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  2. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    National Patriotism, Catholicism, Islamic Fundamentalism, Racial Supremacism, Abusive-Functional Parentage. I think of them as children born to an abusive or alcoholic parent(s). Their world is governed as in what is generally called a cult and their honour is of the utmost importance. Disloyalty is the cardinal sin. The outside world or community is “the bad place” populated by dishonest & evil people who want to do you harm. Your mind is bent to believe that whatever hardship and abuse you endure within, it’s all for the good or to keep you fit for the dangers you will face outside of your bubble of torment where you must never drop your guard for a moment. “Forget not that you are the fortunate one!”

    But let’s just call it for what it is: Brainwashing.
     
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  3. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think that every one here has missed the point except for maybe Kode.

    In 20 or 30 years time when there are no more service industry jobs because androids have replaced humans in those positions as a cost cutting measure and no more educational facilities as a result of kids being programmed directly as they sleep via a chip implanted in the brain there will be too few jobs to keep capitalism going.

    Would prefer a market based system to replace capitalism but am not hopeful.
     
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  4. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which raises a question for another thread, why are we so stupid as to engineer our own extinction?
     
  5. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Profit motive and on the part of the consumer convenience.

    Can you imagine making a phone call in a crowded room, the receiver of the call hearing your thoughts perfectly and you have not touched a phone or spoken a word. With the ability to transmit thoughts images of what you see or imagine can also be shared.
     
  6. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I'm at something of a disadvantage here in trying to create a reply. When you quoted me, evidently the attribution got hit with a
    "<Rule 3> ", although I have received no notice of any of my posts being deleted. So, I don't know what the hell happened... onward!

    OK, now... "corporate socialism"... that's Bernie's description, right? We are all well aware of governments at different levels inticing corporations to locate in certain areas, and giving them 'tax breaks' and other incentives, ostensibly in return for the amount of money that their enterprise(s) would bring to those areas.

    We are also well aware of terrible contracts won by companies long, long ago that gave us the TRUE legends about hammers and toilet seats that the government agreed to pay hundreds of dollars apiece for.

    There's also an enormous amount of money in government contracts that are RESTRICTED so that ONLY minority, and "disadvantaged" companies are even allowed to bid on them! Millions of dollars are squandered on these government designated "set-asides", and in many cases the work performed could have been done by larger, better-run companies for a lot less money, with a lot better quality -- but, the desire of the government to funnel the money to 'politically-correct' causes overrides fairness and common sense! :angel: . :cynic:

    Even worse is the U. S. Tax Code itself, which very unfairly creates dozens of tax loopholes, tax shelters, exemptions, exclusions, and deductions, so that many of the 'Big Rich' actually pay little or nothing in taxes! Ask any good tax attorney about this....

    D'ya think old Bernie might actually DO anything about any of those things?! It would be remarkable if he did -- because these wrongs and abuses have been going on for many DECADES....
     
  7. AlifQadr

    AlifQadr Well-Known Member

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    I am not going to discuss how long the concept of the few ruling over that many has been instituted as a governmental motivation, I will address however, the notion that I put forward about Capitalism and Communism being one and the same, in so far as it is a direct implementation of the concept of the few ruling over the many. Now, which that stated, it is time to discuss the policies of both economic systems, which actually are one and the same.

    With Communism, the means of production is controlled very few. With Capitalism, the means of production are controlled by a very few. To be blunt and to that point, Capitalism is the rule of money; being that money cannot rule, it is more accurately defined as the rule of those who possess the most capitol. With Communism, the means of production and the medium of exchange is controlled by the few, in the ruling party.

    I have plenty more to discuss about both, but I am going to hold off.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  8. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Communism is a means of production and distribution controlled by government bureaucrats and 'apparatchiks' -- usually those with little or no understanding of how any of those systems actually work. Their 'expertise', such as it is, lies in the development of favorable political alliances that propel them into positions of power over those who actually do WORK.

    Capitalism is a means of production and consumption controlled by MARKET DEMAND, and those involved in the various market segments can be few or very numerous -- depending on many people are willing to buy, with their wealth or credit, that which is being produced. As capital is accumulated, wealth is created, and a person is able to buy more and better-quality items that he/she wants.... In sum, a VAST improvement indeed over that depressing, defeatist nonsense about "from each according to his ability... to each according to his need."

    It can be fairly said that no matter what you do, or in what system you do whatever it is that you do, you always work for SOMEBODY. The guy who owns a company works for his customers! The grunt, minimum-wage earner works for his boss, and that boss works for his boss, and so on.... Honestly, unless you're completely financially independent and don't have to count on anyone else for what you want and need, it can be accurately stated that you work for someone else... good, bad, or a shade-of-gray....
     
  9. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Interesting post. I think the automation system will eventually force humans to take more time off work & find personal interest areas to dedicate their excess time to. It could be a wonderful development, but government or some sort of social system will have to provide the basic needs for everyone. Money may become outdated or obsolete & replaced by some sort of barter system--an exchange of goods & services rather than money. We'll have to get beyond the belief that people who don't work hard don't deserve a good living. Robots will be doing most of the work for us, & we'll have a more interesting life doing things we enjoy. It could be a nice way to live--unless global warming prevents it all from happening.
     
  10. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    You make some very good & valid points in your post. I agree with them. Bernie accurately states in his speeches that neither he or any other President can fix the problems you cite above alone. We live in a system of government already well established & deeply entrenched. It will take a concentrated, cooperative effort involving many politicians in Washington & around the country, to make reforms succeed. I don't know if it's possible, but I do know I'd like to see someone try.
     
  11. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, not everyone is stupid. We (those who do not see the danger) are most certainly contributing to our extinction ..... the extinction of "our class". The one's orchestrating our destruction - pulling our strings and pushing the buttons they know will produce the "right" response - continue to prosper in the planned end game of inheriting the earth.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You're reduced to people with rare genetic defects to support you argument for parasitism? Sad. I made it very clear that a subsistence collective preserves a small surplus for the sick, the old, and the young. And by sick I mean physically, or catastrophically brain impaired (unable to do even simple routine work).

    And on the contrary, it's absolutely objective to draw clear lines at the most equitable position. Anything less is subjective, and driven by momentary emotion instead of the pragmatics of 'survival of the most'.
     
  13. Pipette8

    Pipette8 Well-Known Member

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    Communism never did a freaking thing for the world but leave more and more people in poverty, and tens of millions dead. A system of government that insists that everyone is equal and deserves the same pay squashed any incentive to work hard, and innovate. What is the point of working hard and creatively when the worker next to you messes around all day, and still gets the same pay as you do? Why excel at something if you aren't going to be rewarded for your hard work?
    You can see how this works even in the USA today. I work my ass off, pay my taxes which are then used to subsidize those who don't want to work. Why should I work hard and pay full price for everything while the neighbor who has never worked gets everything for free?
    Communism is a joke and always has been.
     
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  14. Pipette8

    Pipette8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but did Bellamy ever live in a Democratic Socialist society? Were his wages ever distributed to others more unfortunate (or lazy and stupid) than him? Were any of his possessions ever 'collectivized'? Was he censored in any way? Did he happily work grueling hours at work that he was over qualified for? Did he live under a totalitarian government? Was he expected to turn in his children or other relatives if they insulted the party? Did he live through starvation like they did in Russia and China?
    Communism/socialism all sounds so nice--equality for all, free everything. But these are only pretty words. Nothing in the communist countries worked out like the psychopathic drama kings Lenin, and Marx said it would.
     
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  15. Pipette8

    Pipette8 Well-Known Member

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    The two biggest communist countries--USSR and China--had to go to capitalism to get anywhere.
     
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  16. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Banned

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    Freedom to be crushed by the wealthy.
     
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  17. jdog

    jdog Banned

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    This is elementary. The US was founded on the principal of individual freedom and individual sovereignty. Capitalism is the only system that is compatible with those values. Socialism is compatible with a Statist system in which the people are subjects of the State.
     

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