I’m a neocon!

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Thedimon, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Why do left have such hatred for neoconservatives?
    I’d think neocons would be their best friends! Neoconservatives generally advocate strong, militaristic foreign policy, but are generally receptive to some forms of welfare state. For example, I want the US to be hawkish against Russia, China and Iran, have strong military and up to date nuclear forces; and at the same time I’m all for free education for all (with some progress limitations), Medicare for all, perfectly OK with abortions, as long as not late term, and other things.
    I’m a former leftist, just like most neocons are and am wondering if the left is creating more neocons by their extreme left shift?

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I'd describe you as center-left not a neocon. Neocons generally oppose education for all, Medicare for all, and are pro-life. You are generally left-leaning but maybe don't want as big of a welfare state as democrats want and want a larger military. Bush was a neocon and doubled military spending. Obama did decrease military spending but only mildly and was a lot more militaristic in practice than he was while running for president.
     
  3. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Noecons are not opposed to liberty. Leftists fear liberty more than anything else. The only freedom that they value is exactly freedom from liberty.

    Liberty is the individual's authority over and responsibility for them self. Leftists equate other people having authority over themselves with anarchy, and they equate them having responsibility for themselves with oppression.
     
  4. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Conservatism just refers to weighting of costs and benefits. In political economic terms, its vacuous. Unsurprisingly, neocon allows for cobblers to run amok. It typically refers to a "centrist" (with of course all of the standard hawkish baggage) trying to impress right wingers by grunting that Hayek wasn't grunting enough.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  5. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    My opinion is that true leftists see the US as the root of all evil, and will settle for no less than its complete annihilation. More moderate leftists only want the US to be subservient to some other body or nation.

    Anyone who wants the USA to continue, as a sovereign nation, is an enemy to them.
     
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  6. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You might as well be arguing that frogs speak latin.
     
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  7. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you read the definition of a neoconservative you’d see that what I’m describing fits the definition. I many ways neocons are center, center-left, center-right.
     
  8. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Neocons aren't centre of anything. They've just been honest with their hatred of progressive politics.
     
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  9. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    That’s the thing - I don’t mind welfare for the US citizens and legal residents, but I refuse to blame the US for all of the worlds problems. I’m also of the opinion that if you are poor in the US - it’s your own damn fault.
    I also think the US should take advantage from its military strength as much as possible - screw ideology, if we can force someone to do things that we benefit from it, we should do it.
     
  10. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Sounds terribly like fascism. No wonder you 'screw ideology'
     
  11. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    How is that similar to fascism? Do you even know what fascism is?
     
  12. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    I just listed “progressive” things that many neocons would support.
     
  13. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect a neocon to realise. Here's the definition mind you...

    Fascism is a jampot of joviality because of its multiple definitions. To highlight its right wing nature, however, there are several elements we can refer to. I'd first refer to Keserich's definition of fascism as 'the reactionary and terroristic dictatorship of finance capital'. I'd then describe how fascism is incompatible with socialist political economy. Zanden (1960, American Journal of Economics and Sociology, Vol 19, pp 399-411) is a good source. First, the movement is characterised by anti-intellectualism ('obedience, discipline, faith and a religious belief in the cardinal tenets of the Fascist creed are put forth as the supreme values of a perfect Fascist. Individual thinking along independent lines is discouraged. What is wanted is not brains, daring ideas, or speculative faculties, but character pressed in the mold of Fascism'). That is closer to a worship of alienation. Second, we have the belief in the distribution of innate ability (i.e. the Theory of the Elites where those with a natural talent for ruling rule over the masses). A socialist, on the other hand, appreciates the destructiveness of class. Third, we have a reaction against democracy: 'the mass of men is created to be governed and not to govern; is created to be led and not to lead, and is created, finally, to be slaves and not masters: slaves of their animal instincts, their physiological needs, their emotions, and their passions'. That ain't participatory socialism! Fourth, we have 'fascism is in its broadest meaning a revolt against the modern age, against democratisation, secularisation and internationalism'. That is conservatism! Fifth, we have corporatism where fascism is defined as 'a system of political and economic decision-making based on the representation of organised interest groups in government' (Sarti).

    The problem for you is that neocons go for hawkish foreign policy and couple it with disregard of individualism. That's very fascist friendly!
     
  14. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    How does that relate to neoconservatism?
    Fascism is about state control of corporations and large businesses. Nothing that I would ever advocate.
    How does hawkish foreign policy hurt your individualism?
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Crikey, you do have a need for repetition. I've already said. The hawkishness is nationalism. The attack on Hayek is a rejection of individualism. Classic fascist traits.
     
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  16. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    You fail!
     
  17. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So if that’s “liberty” why are the conservatives on board with corporations paying zero taxes, agribusiness getting bailouts, the state forcing women to carry a rapists bundle of cells to term, and gay people being arrested?
     
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  18. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Far right conservatives oppose abortions. Neoconservatives only want to limit It by banning late term abortions.
    As for gay people - neocons don’t give a damn about who you sleep with. I personally have only one concern - survivor benefits being meant to widows who spent their lives raising kids instead of pursuing a career. But that’s a subject for another conversation.
     
  19. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I whole heartedly agree with this.
    Ive always thought SS should be set up in something like a savings bond — upon death it would go to heirs or your estate, be it your child, the next door neighbor, your spouse, your mistress or your pet. Government has done nothing but steal from it.
     
  20. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I see neoconservatives as right-wing but not legit conservative but not so much that they are centrist moderate right. For example George W. Bush and John McCain are some neoconservatives and are well to the right of you. I personally am a moderate and your positions sound kind of moderate to left.

    Here are my positions. I support a smaller slim military like what we had in the 90s and more technology-oriented. I think our allies should take more of a global role and we should only work as part of a coalition to challenge Russia and China. I honestly don't care about the nonsense Iran or the mess in the middle east.

    I don't believe in free education for all. That only result will be that if the schools are still privately run, they will just hike prices since students now have free money. If the schools are government-run then they will be far less innovative and not prepare students for the workplace. A better idea is to emphasize bootcamps, tech schools, online schools, apprenticeships, and in-demand majors. We should limit free government to schools and students and instead provide salary deducted zero interest loans to students.

    I don't believe in the Medicare for all, because Medicare is kind of a mess with a ton of different parts, and abolishing private insurance is a bad idea. I'd rather replace Medicare, Medicaid, and Veterans with a public insurance for everyone with large subsidies to help pay for healthcare, public hospitals along side private hospitals, and smart free market regulations to increase competition and reduce costs.

    I kind of believe in a limited welfare state. We should keep the food stamps but only allow welfare for people in school. I support keeping the existing social security but extending the social security tax to all income for the rich and using it to fund 401Ks also also beefing up business 401K requirements.
     
  21. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Corporate/Government power based on militarism. The neoCON war profiteers were/are perfect fascists. They create wars and make huge profits on battlefield expendables. They don’t necessesarily fight to win, just to drag it out and waste as much ammunition and cruise missels as possible while charging huge sums of money for food/shelter/water in their chosen battle fronts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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  22. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Gross misrepresentation of the facts. Neocons are misnomered and scarcely well understood by most. Neocons are the heirs of the old Scoop Jackson Democrats. In short they are big government folks who could care less about how much we spend on government provided the military gets its share.
     
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  23. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Someone fed you a load of horse feces on a platter.

    As to your named issues.
    1. Corporations simply collect taxes and do not pay them from profits. We consumers pay the taxes.
    2. FDR created the agribusiness bailouts. So it is a Democrat program.
    3. Made me laugh so hard it hurts. So extinguish all life is what you want ?
    4. Homosexuals can put their mouth on any part of the human and I do not care. I voted when In CA that they have a special marriage contract.
     
  24. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    I’d like to add to that - use military efficiently and not to shy away from using it to gain advantage over others every chance we get.
    Very militaristic, but don’t mind, even support, some form of welfare state, as long as personal responsibility still takes a priority.
     
  25. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I will say this: the current administration has taught me a new appreciation for the neocons.
     

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