Two oil tankers struck in suspected attacks in Gulf of Oman

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Canell, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Hell ... you have much lesser NCO rankls as we have and also having other meanings as ours. The question which arise about to write Sergeant correctly is ..."who cares"?
    I served in Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo!
     
  2. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    1. Yes he was, he was a dictator in the making.
    2. Wow, snappy comeback! Which facts?
    3. My country is the land of hope and glory and the mother of the free, what do I have to defend?
    4. Yes realpolitik, you can't always choose your allies.
     
  3. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Nope I'm saying that the US couldn't abandon Iraq just for their chemical weapon use. Lets see these documents, please? The Mullahs took over the embassy as a bargaining chip to force the US to unfreeze their assets and return the Shah.
     
  4. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    With?
     
  5. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, he wasn't ... and why do you care, if you support a mountain of other dictators who are for sure?

    Sure ... forget it.

    It was ... but is since decades not anymore .... and it did a mountain of crimes, which you defend as being OK ... when accusing your opponents for right the same thing of being evil. [/QUOTE]

    Maybe ... but that makes the US a hypocritical rogue state that no one trusts.
    And this view of the US is growing in the world ... especially since 2003 ... and since Trump is in the White House.

    Look ... even Trump says that Russia interfered in the US election campaign and tried to influence it. What evel Russians, eh?
    Strange ... the US has just done the proven way and by the CIA by now, at least 34 times done in this world! That's OK then, eh?

    Of course you can say that you do not care, etc. ... but take a look at the new Iran crisis. In 2003, you had 3/4 of NATO behind you against Saddam ... you have only 2 allies that would follow you in a war with Iran: Israel and Saudi Aabien.
    No one from Europe ... OK, maybe the Polish ass-crawler Duda ... but nobody else in Europe and from the rest of the world.
     
  6. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    So I'm right? American hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance!
    After accepting the banned use of chemical weapons and legalizing it for "real political interest" ... and until today, and even though Saddam has long been history, he has not condemned the operation against Iranian soldiers ... why should Iran or anyone still adhere to the ban on the use of chemical weapons?

    And about the documents ... even I know that you will say that no trustwothy source ... here:

    http://english.khamenei.ir/news/4295/US-used-its-Tehran-embassy-to-plot-a-counter-coup-against-Iran
     
  7. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    German Armed Forces ...
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When you said because, you quit commenting on my statements and came up with your own reasons.

    I was not giving the forum an opinion, I gave them the facts learned by researchers.

    My opinion is the narrow focus on means of death while ignoring bodies ripped to shreds makes it almost amusing that Geneva did not simply outlaw all forms of making wars.
     
  9. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    It is of course fact that the USSR supported Saddam too ... as he was supported yb the USA. Iran became ironically for both cold war super powers a threat. For the US due to kown reasons and for the USSR due to fear that Islamist movement of Iran can cross the border to them.

    And that Geneva Convention was very often broken by everyone who made any war since Convention exists ... so also by your country too ... is not a reason to blame the convention at all.

    Here we have the fact that Saddam used poison gas against the Kurdish insurgents in Iraq who opposed him and killed with it many civilians too with intention ... AND ... against Iranian Army in this bloody war. Neither the USA, not the USSR blamed Saddam for this when it happened. USSR is not existing anymore ... and for the USA it became only an evil event of the past in 1990/1991 when they were in war with Saddam.
    But here only the use against the Kurds ... until today no word from Washington about the use against Iranian soldiers!

    So ... was the use against Iran still justified for Washington until now?
    What gives then the USA the right to be upset about allegated use of chemical weapons in Syria? Has the USA any right to decide when use of chemical weopons is OK and when not?
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would opine to you that you are correct. Do we reflect what Geneva says or not?

    We do not use CW but when I was in the Army in Germany in 1962-64, we trained for others to use them against us. Our training was to laugh about. But they called it training.

    Democrats in America for the most part ignore Saddam totally until 1990. Iraq to most citizens is a name. I doubt the majority of Americans can point it out if the name is not on the map.

    Iran as our former ally was essentially our spy on the gulf. When it was made a religious country, it stopped helping us. The Soviets were a good friend of Saddam and armed him. For some unknown reason democrats in America persist on the myth that Reagan was the friend to Saddam. Reagan hoped to get his spy in Iraq and covertly helped in a very minor way, Iran. We have a special weapon to stop tanks. We called it the TOW. Reagan wanted to help Iran stop tanks. Reagan never donated or sold to Iran other weapons. Reagan never sold to Saddam CW materials either nor sold him weapons that are CW.
     
  11. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't live there, so I don't really care.

    Until George & Dick put us smack dab in the middle of all that religious nonsense we were doing fairly well. Our Global War Of Terror has harmed this country more than others.

    Too many times, morality is a subjective affair. Iraq did rather well in terms of quality of life when the iron hand of Saddam ruled.
     
  12. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Sez you

    Why dont you try thinging of originsl smears instead of stealing mine?
     
  13. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    We trained this of course too and it was rediculous ... like this "duck and cover" joke to be save against nuclear explosion etc. It is about the realistic potential use by the portential enemy ... and both - USA as well USSR - hat a stock pile of Chemical Weapons at least. I was in service when the US Aor Base in Bitburg was removed and all the stuff put on truicks and trains send to Bremerhaven to be shipped back into the USA. There were Atomic bombs and Chemical weapons transported too.

    That many Americans - left and rigt - still do not know where Iraq and Iran is to find on the globe is sure. I still can remember when I was In Georgia for Urban Combat Training with US Army in the mid 1990's, there was in the end a big BBQ done. A lady of my age - civilian - asked me seriously how it is with the war in my country Germany.
    Ehm ... what war please?
    "Well, my grandfather fought agains tthe Nazis, my father was in the 1960's in Germany to fight and by cousin is currently in Grafenwoehr based to fight..."

    Ehm ... OK ... but you know that WW-2 ended in 1945? and since then we had until 1991 something called "cold war"? Lol ...


    About the realtions to Iran ... USA throw of Mossadegh and installed a dictatorship of the Shah and the Iranian military which was thrown off from power in 1979. That these people were not amused about the USA is clear, whne the USA helped the Shah to surpress them.

    Reagan administration sold to Iran illegal and no matte rabout hostage and embassy attack several weapons and other stuff they needed to get black money to finance the secret war to back the Contras in Nicaragua, what was also forbidden to do by Congress!
    And sorry to say ... they helped Iraq to get Chemical weapons and even allowed France to help Saddam to get a nuclear power plant, which was short before ready destroyed by Israel as you know. Reagan was not amused about this Israeli action...
    These are facts and no myths ...
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who said anything about "conspiracy" ? What on earth are you talking about.

    How does arming "Al Qaeda" with sophisticated US technology, serve the greater good ? These and other groups of the same ilk were running around raping, persecuting and killing Christians and other minorities and their over all goal was turning Syria into a strict sharia Islamist state.

    Aside from your argument being an absurdity to begin with - meaning that anyone could claim "greater good" for anything - including Stalin or Mao - how did the above action constitute a "greater good".
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Give evidence for your claims - you know - like I do. The Saudi Gov't has been arming and supporting Islamist extremist groups all over the world for decades - There is a reason for the lawsuits against the Saudi Gov't for 911 for goodness sake. Regardless - the Saudi Gov't did nothing to stop the money from flowing to Al Qaeda.

    It is not some big secret that we were arming AQ - and other groups of the same ilk in Syria. You clearly have not studied the issue. We have numerous "bipartisan" in congress that have called out the Obama admin for doing this. Biden himself stated that Saudi Arabia was arming these groups.

    How did you think small groups of Jihadists managed to take on a Nation State and maintain the fight over numerous years ? Was it Santa that dropped tens of thousands of tonnes of sophisticated military technology ?

    Here is a good article to start with. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-america-armed-terrorists-in-syria/
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did not give an opinion or any reasons. You were the one that is of the opinion that your "facts learned by researchers" justify violating the Geneva and Chemical weapons treaties that prohibit the use of such weapons.

    I disagree with your opinion and justification for wanting to legitimize the use of chemical weapons. The only opinion I proffered was that your rational for wanting to legitimize the use of chemical weapons is absurd.
     
  17. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Maybe ... but that makes the US a hypocritical rogue state that no one trusts.
    And this view of the US is growing in the world ... especially since 2003 ... and since Trump is in the White House.

    Look ... even Trump says that Russia interfered in the US election campaign and tried to influence it. What evel Russians, eh?
    Strange ... the US has just done the proven way and by the CIA by now, at least 34 times done in this world! That's OK then, eh?

    Of course you can say that you do not care, etc. ... but take a look at the new Iran crisis. In 2003, you had 3/4 of NATO behind you against Saddam ... you have only 2 allies that would follow you in a war with Iran: Israel and Saudi Aabien.
    No one from Europe ... OK, maybe the Polish ass-crawler Duda ... but nobody else in Europe and from the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]

    1. Yes he was and he was going to become a Communist dictator, that's the difference
    2. No comeback, huh?
    3. Oh it still is and whilst we did reprehensible things in the days of empire we were no worse than anyone else and a darn sight better than most.
    4. It's not a rogue state it does the best it can in the circumstances, remember I'm quoting Bismarck here?
    5. Okay, don't need anti-Polish prejudice from a German, remember how that ended last time?

    Actually I would say if there was one thing to unite the world it would be attacks against neutral oil tankers in international waters?
     
  18. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Again, what alternative did they have? Withdraw support from Iraq and let the Mullah's win? The Iranians should adhere to the ban as the 2003 liberation removed the threat.

    To say that is an untrustworthy source is putting it lightly. That's an opinion piece. The Iranians were actually able to seize and restore the CIA's classified material from the embassy so if Tehran Mary and co found such proof I think we'd have seen it by now.
     
  19. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    The isolationist fantasy that you can close your eyes and wish the rest of the world didn't exist? Surely that went out with 9/11? Or Pearl Harbour? The US was long involved in the Middle East before GW and Cheney came along. The Global War on terror has kept the US safe.

    Really? Under Saddam? Having hundreds of thousands killed in Kuwait and Iran? Not to mentions100,000s more killed in his internal repression? Not to mention his lack of human rights and crippling UN sanctions with the oil wealth being squandered on WMDs and other weapons?
     
  20. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    You want someone to blame rather than accept the real world needs tough decisions and lacks the benefit of hindsight. AQ were just one of the Muj groups in Afghanistan and it served our purpose to bring down the Soviet Union, it was the right thing to do. I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that Obama armed AQ/ISIS in Syria?

    People do but that is the perfect example, backing Stalin against Hitler and opening the door to China as a potential ally against the USSR.
     
  21. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    1. Yes the Saudi backed extremist groups to further their aims, they did not back AQ knowing they were planning a huge strike against the US.
    2. The lawsuits came to nothing because they were baseless. No member of the Saudi government ever helped AQ with 9/11
    3. What did the US government do to stop racist Americans giving money to the IRA s they could murder and ethnically cleanse my people?
    4. Once again you arm sympathetic groups to further your aims but you have no absolute control over what they eventually do with them. That's what happened to us in Malaya and the US in Vietnam.
     
  22. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Lol, there are lots of revisionist books out there. Have you ever read any of the puffball biographies of GHWB??

    I haven't read the one you are promoting so I will reserve comment but I think they liked to keep Reagan with plausible deniability to what was really happening in the WH basement under Bush.

    It is a long complicated chapter involving multiple scandals that have been treated like individual incidents where a few underlings were slapped and then the country moved on to the next scandal.

    Americans are not well informed on what was going on in Latin America and around the world with covert ops so I will leave it there but I think Reagan was a figurehead in his own administration.

    The history of the Bush family going back to the gilded era to the present day is far more complicated than you may understand
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I gave you a link detailing how Obama armed AQ and the groups that went on to form the modern incarnation of ISIS in Syria. What's your deal ?

    The article then goes on to detail specific examples of arms going to the Islamist Jihadist rebels in Syria.
    The article goes on and on.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) I did not say that the Saudi leadership knew - that is irrelevant - The Taliban did not know either and denounced Al Qaeda immediately after 911. Nice try at a nonsense argument
    2) The lawsuits were not shown to be baseless - now you are just making up stuff.
    3) No clue what you are trying to get at ... The IRA was not a threat to the US and has nothing to do with 911 or AQ.
    4) This is big nonsense - if the Obama admin did nothing wrong - on the basis of being sympathetic to Al Qaeda - including arming them with tens of thousands of tons of sophisticated military technology - then why was the cover up so extensive .. why did they not just tell the American public what they were doing ? You are wandering down a rabbit hole that has little to do with the topic being covered.
     
  25. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Funds associated with Prince Bandar (Bandar Bush) were shown to have been transferred to the San Diego safehouse where 2 of the 9/11 terrorists were hiding:

    "They show ties between associates of the hijackers and Saudi Arabian Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the former longtime ambassador to the United States. In a phone book found on al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah, captured in Pakistan in 2002 and who is currently imprisoned at the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, investigators discovered the unlisted phone number of an Aspen company that managed the “affairs of the Colorado residence of the Saudi Ambassador Bandar,” according to the documents.

    The newly-released report also indicates that Osama Bassnan, a neighbor of and alleged financial supporter of two of the hijackers in San Diego, received cash from Bandar and Bandar’s wife."

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/1...of-911-hijackers-and-former-saudi-ambassador/
     

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