Ask your difficult questions of an Atheist.

When we go by biological and societal criteria a fetus is human but not functional or societally important. The only reasons I can see for the problems stem from religion or ignorance. What the issue really comes down to is whether people get to use this to limit another persons personal freedom.

 

Which is a religious belief.

Obviously not since a religious belief isn't based on logic.

That would be nice since it is so Anti-American and deplorable to take away women's right to their own bodies.


Yes, Canada doesn't have laws against women having abortions and their rate is lower than ours.....maybe you should tell Anti-Choicers that little nugget...but they don't seem to want facts.



And lower abortion rates are NOT what Anti-Choicers are after.

Which they don't keep any better than anyone else.

See my comment directly above.

 

I don’t know the answer. Some don’t know the answer so they create an invisible man in the sky who went “poof” and everything happened.
When the ancient Greeks didn’t know why the sun appeared and disappeared they created a God who dragged it in a chariot. Then when science explained it the God sounded like a myth. ...or do you believe. A woman turned into a pillar of salt and a man walked on water?

 

What the hell for? So you can show off your evasion skills again?

Yeah, it's all there...

...so what is there that needs putting up?

I shall be happy to, the minute I bloody well feel like it.

 

Well, I don't agree with their position on laws as the way to reduce the number of abortions. That has horrible ramifications, obviously.

But, let's be careful about being overly critical of their objectives or assessments of how everyone with a religion behaves. I share their wish for lower numbers of abortions - it's the method that is the problem, right?

 

I've had a lot of conversations with Anti-Choicers and even the ones who want to talk ethics and philosophy of abortion all calm and intellectual ? Well, after being hit with facts and shown real life they always get frustrated and devolve to some form of " The slut should've kept her legs together".

AND those who want to appear all compassionate and caring and say they "allow " for rape or incest reveal their true agenda...punishing women who have had consensual sex by forcing THEM to gestate..

.If the pregnancy isn't her "fault" ( rape) then they allow abortion.....BUT an abortion due to rape is EXACTLY the same procedure and outcome as an abortion due to consensual sex.....proving their aim is to punish women who have had consensual sex NOT to save a "precious life"...

Yes, there may be one or two Anti's who honestly think it's "murdering babies" and honestly hate the idea ...they have a right to such a goofy opinion but shouldn't try to force it down other's throats.

People who try to ban abortion fail to acknowledge there is a reason abortion has always been around and will always be around and making women 's life hell isn't the decent, humane way, NOR AN EFFECTIVE WAY, to stop it...


BTW, one can NEVER be "overly critical" of those who want to take away people's right to their own bodies...they need loud heavy criticism..

 

Beats me why they do...

No, they are being labeled by what they are, by what they believe.

"Lack of belief" is self refuting. There is ALWAYS belief involved in assertions regarding any given topic. To claim that there isn't any belief involved is, in and of itself, expressing a belief. The very moment that you open your mouth and make an assertion, you are expressing your belief.

 

Those who want to reduce the number of abortions by enacting laws against women don't all have the same beliefs.

For example, some of the states have recently enacted laws that do not allow for abortion due to rape or incest. That represents a significant constituency that is struggling to be consistent in their beliefs.

In fact, our entire society sees embryos as more significant than other tissue. The vast majority, probably all of Americans want fewer abortions. One can't really hold that position and think of embryos as no more than other tissue - obviously.

We have to recognize that everyone does value embryos over other tissue. And, it shouldn't be surprising that abortion law is not the only law on ethical treatment of human embryos.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
I've had a lot of conversations with Anti-Choicers and even the ones who want to talk ethics and philosophy of abortion all calm and intellectual ? Well, after being hit with facts and shown real life they always get frustrated and devolve to some form of " The slut should've kept her legs together".

AND those who want to appear all compassionate and caring and say they "allow " for rape or incest reveal their true agenda...punishing women who have had consensual sex by forcing THEM to gestate..

.If the pregnancy isn't her "fault" ( rape) then they allow abortion.....BUT an abortion due to rape is EXACTLY the same procedure and outcome as an abortion due to consensual sex.....proving their aim is to punish women who have had consensual sex NOT to save a "precious life"...

Yes, there may be one or two Anti's who honestly think it's "murdering babies" and honestly hate the idea ...they have a right to such a goofy opinion but shouldn't try to force it down other's throats.

People who try to ban abortion fail to acknowledge there is a reason abortion has always been around and will always be around and making women 's life hell isn't the decent, humane way, NOR AN EFFECTIVE WAY, to stop it...


BTW, one can NEVER be "overly critical" of those who want to take away people's right to their own bodies...they need loud heavy criticism..

Nope , and some are worse than others....and I never said differently..

How "significant" are they?

And should our country give such barbarians their way to the detriment of 51% of the population? No.

Every poll since RvW has shown the majority of Americans want abortion to be legal...

Sorry, you don't speak for the "entire society"

Why?


If abortions are legal why is how many there are important???

There should be EXACTLY as many abortions as women who want them.

No, "we" don't.

Give me a heads up when you decide to address the post of mine you quoted....

 

There are MANY things one can believe, can look to for guidance.

"Atheiist" just notes one thing that is NOT believed.

If you want to know what an atheist believes, looks to for guidance, one would need to ASK.

 

Correct.

It also notes one thing that IS believed, just like everything else does...

I don't even have to do that... I need only know that Atheism is the opposite of Theism.

 

You have NO evidence that this is about punishment in any way.

Rape and incest are recognized as harmful to the woman.

These circumstances are not seen as the same as consensual sex where two people consented to the risk of pregnancy.

Many who would otherwise be opposed to abortion are willing to accept that the harm to the woman CAN be serious enough that absolute laws against abortion aren't the best approach.

Let's not make assumptions about the motivation of people who oppose abortion. When assumptions are false it usually kills opportunity for discussion.

 

Pretty much ANYTHING you base on that is going to look silly.

People don't look for answers by combing through the thousands of things they DON't believe. And, you are discounting the entire range of what the DO believe - outside of the god thing.

In practice, I think your absolutist view could end up looking like willful ignorance.

 

If by silly you mean logical, then you are correct.

Theism is the belief that god(s) do exist. There are numerous other religions stemming from the overarching religion of Theism. Same with the overarching religion of Atheism, which believes that god(s) do not exist.

I have provided the logical framework behind my position numerous times. See my past posts, especially post #1548 in the Atheism is a Religion thread... http://www.politicalforum.com/index...on-mod-warning.554804/page-62#post-1070666343

 

OK. I'm bored!

 

.

If the woman doesn't want to gestate FORCING her to IS punishment. Getting pregnant is NOT a CRIME!

And I it made CLEAR IF one doesn't believe in abortion, thinks it's "murder" or something... then HOW IS ABORTION DUE TO RAPE ANY DIFFERENT THAN AN ABORTION DUE TO CONSENSUAL SEX?

The procedure and outcome are EXACTLY THE SAME.

Do you deny this or accept this????

And pregnancy isn't ?!!!!!!!

YES, It is!

Losing the right to one's own body isn't harmful ?

YES, IT IS!

Consent to one act, sex, is NOT consent to any other act, getting pregnant.

In fact, women cannot get pregnant by giving consent...they could have sex a thousand times while consenting to get pregnant and NOT get pregnant.

.
YOU ARE saying that if one takes the risk of mountain climbing and falls and is injured they MUST lay there and die because they took the risk.....NO options for them!!!!!!

.
AGAIN, pregnancy causes women harm and NO one else has the right to demand she stay pregnant...a horrible show of misogyny and barbarism.

I didn't....I made statements based on a LONG history of debating Anti-Choicers…..I go by their words....


It would be nice if they quit calling me "baby killer" but they haven't stopped so I can SAFELY assume they are barbarians with no knowledge of science and/or biology.

And NO ONE assumes more than those who think they, The Gods Who Rule Women, should control women and what they do with their reproductive system...



Can you answer at least part of my post?:

And should our country give such barbarians their way to the detriment of 51% of the population?

 

I already answered this.

This is a matter of weighing the harm to the woman (of carrying a rape baby) and the death of an embryo.

Some see that as a justification for leaving the decision to the woman even though they see abortion as a moral wrong

This isn't my belief. BUT, the question you are asking is about OTHER people. Your idea of punishment is coming from YOU, NOT from other people. Don't make charges you can't back up.

Again, ALL Americans want there to be fewer abortions. So, ALL Americans must have some level of concern for embryos.

I'm not interested in laws against women. But, that is because of the harm of the law, NOT because I see no ethical issues concerning embryos.

If you have sex, you are taking on the risk of pregnancy. Every method of birth control has a failure rate.

That's just a fact of biology. You have no rational argument against that.

Don't be silly. The fact that someone took a risk does not mean they have to suffer arbitrary consequences. We take risk when we consent to riding in a car.

NOW you move on to abortion!!

I agree with making abortion purely the choice of the woman who is pregnant (along with anyone she wants to consult, of course). But, let's talk to people about that without making other unwarranted accusations about punishment, etc. I also want there to be fewer abortions - just not by laws against women. And, Canada (for one) is having better success without laws than we are WITH laws.

WE can argue that there is a better way of reducing the number of abortions!!

When you go for the radical accusations like calling people barbarians or accusing them of using pregnancy as punishment they are likely to call you a baby killer. Nobody is going to listen to your sensible arguments when they have to pick out the arguments from between the radical accusations that they clearly know are false.

 

Sorry that logic bores you. :/

 

Even though I'm a "pro-lifer", I fully appreciate this post, and even agree with a lot of it, especially the bolded part at the end.

 

Everyone in America wants there to be fewer abortions, which is what I'm thinking "pro-lifer" means. All of America is pro life.

So, that's not actually the issue. There is already full agreement on that.

The real issue is one of methodology.

As a "Pro Choice" advocate, I'd point out that I'm NOT pro abortion - I believe the woman has the right to be the one who makes the decision. It's a serious, life altering decision affecting both mental and physical health besides the other ramifications. There are lots of ways to affect that decision besides writing laws to deny her rightful decision making authority. I advocate using other means than laws against women.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
.

If the woman doesn't want to gestate FORCING her to IS punishment. Getting pregnant is NOT a CRIME!

And I it made CLEAR IF one doesn't believe in abortion, thinks it's "murder" or something... then HOW IS ABORTION DUE TO RAPE ANY DIFFERENT THAN AN ABORTION DUE TO CONSENSUAL SEX?

The procedure and oputcome are EXACTLY THE SAME.

Do you deny this or accept this????

I backed it up with the first part of my post above!

Just because you don't seem to understand it and could NOT answer my question doesn't mean I didn't back it up. It was clearly explained in English. But NO one, especially Anti-Choicers has ever been able to answer a very pertinent question:HOW IS ABORTION DUE TO RAPE ANY DIFFERENT THAN AN ABORTION DUE TO CONSENSUAL SEX?

And you didn't either.

What can't you get about

A. It is the woman's decision as to which is worse for her, abortion or gestation. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT? WHY DO YOU THINK YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD DECIDE? Who TF are you to "weigh " HER options???



B. Why can't you accept the scientific fact that pregnancy harms women ?

I see you care nothing about :

""""Losing the right to one's own body isn't harmful ?

YES, IT IS!""""

Again YOU do not speak for all Americans. Is there a "god syndrome" at work here???

No, they don't all care about embryos....how ridiculous.

GOOD! Then fight those who want to ban abortion and take away women's right to their own bodies....BACK THAT STATEMENT UP

Why would I? None of that proves that abortion should be banned....did you have a point?


WHY couldn't you address :
"""Consent to one act, sex, is NOT consent to any other act, getting pregnant.

In fact, women cannot get pregnant by giving consent...they could have sex a thousand times while consenting to get pregnant and NOT get pregnant."""""



Seems you don't want a discussion, you just want to give the same speech over and over.

DUH, EXACTLY...so why should women be forced to gestate because they had sex????????????????????????????????????????

When one consents to riding in a car they do NOT consent to being in an accident...just riding in a car.

Uh, DUH , that's what we've been discussing …(goodgawd) and that response of yours had NOTHING to do with the comment of mine you quoted : ""AGAIN, pregnancy causes women harm and NO one else has the right to demand she stay pregnant...a horrible show of misogyny and barbarism.""


No discussion, just you ignoring the comment and giving a speech.

So what should we say to them, "oh pretty please don't take away women's right to their own bodies" ?? That has NOT worked.

The accusations are NOT unwarranted.

I hope you aren't including me in that "also"...I only want the same number of abortions as women who want abortions...

Your trite , ""oh we must cut down on abortions" isn't cutting it.

I asked you WHY we should cut down on abortions and got no answer as usual.

Then intelligent people should look to Canada but Anti-Choicers don't qualify.

But why should we....if the number of abortions equals the number of women who want an abortion WHAT TF is wrong with that and WHY can't you answer that question or address the statement???????

Except I'm right and they are wrong...I have NEVER said I wanted babies killed....so they just make that up..


And forcing women to gestate IS barbaric.....or do they think it's just some fun...


.

And clearly YOU haven't proven them false...

 

Rape and incest are crimes against a person with both immediate and long term impacts that are negative and serious.

That's not like consensual sex - which involves the partners chosing to take the risk of pregnancy.

 

I doubt this topic has much of anything to do with "proof".

It's a matter of people's values and beliefs.

Also, I strongly doubt many minds are changed here. However, one might be able plant some seeds of ideas that could move some to see this as a topic that can be discussed seriously and clarify where we can actually agree and even cooperate.

 

OK, you have no answers....not many do...

Whatever your two sentences meant they were too scrambled to address..


Sorry, that you deny pregnancy causes harm and long term impact on women...nice way to denigrate women and what they go through in pregnancy...

 

You’re playing with words. I don’t believe in pink unicorns. I don’t believe I am 7’3”. I don’t believe George Clooney wants to leave his wife for me.