Question for gun controllers:

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by modernpaladin, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I've personally no idea what the figures are. But whatever they are, it doesn't matter. We have the right to protect ourselves from armored criminals regardless of how many of them are out there.

    If someone chooses to defend their home with something other than a rifle, that's their choice. Various weapons have differing strong points and weak points, and everyone has their own preferences how best to defend their homes. But by the same token, if someone does choose to defend their home with a rifle, that's perfectly fine.

    Remember that Americans are free people. We don't do this serf-ish "need" nonsense that people have to put up with in Europe.

    If we choose to have a particular weapon, that's the weapon that we go out and buy.
     
  2. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Which does not answer the question as it was presented. If the firearms used in attempted shop robberies in the united kingdom are imitations, what is serving as the motivating factor in complying with the robbery attempt? Why is an unarmed robber not beaten severely by the intended victim in response for their efforts?
     
  3. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Because there comes a point, to me personally, where the risk becomes greater than the reward. I am professionally trained with firearms as well as hand to hand and close quarter combat. I'm not Chuck Norris or anything but I'm much more versed in it than most seeing how it was my job for many years.

    I have enough firearms to where I could make my house a fortified castle, I am pretty well versed in setting up urban defensive positions also. I could strategically place firearms in here, have fallback positions, no pen lines, etc. That's just way too much, my rifles stay in the closet I'm not positioning them around the house nor am I setting up an AK with a bipod behind cover pointed at my bedroom door "just in case". A normal Mossberg 12ga is my home defense weapon, if 8 shells don't stop the squad of bad guys then yes I guess I'm just screwed. I may be able to run back to the room and grab one of the handguns kept in a drawer but that's it. And to me that is good enough. There is being prepared and there is being what I feel to be a little ridiculous. As in right now, I am in my office in my house, I have no firearms in here, if somebody were to kick in my front door right now I'd have to dart back to my bedroom to pick up a shotgun wasting precious time. I know folks who always have firearms within arms reach all over their house, that's fine, I'm not doing that.

    Same with my carry gun. I have enough handguns to walk around armed to the teeth with multiple ones on my person any any given time. With the cold climate here it's easy to conceal plenty even OWB if I so desire. I could also easily conceal body armor and plates under the heavy coats I wear most of the year. Don't even have to conceal them if I don't want, I live in a free state there are no laws against open carry or concealed carry. But instead of carrying around a bunch of guns and extra magazines I simply carry one subcompact 9mm IWB. I don't carry jacket rounds in my carry gun because I am out in public and the risk of the rounds going through the bad guy and into an innocent person is a risk I'm not willing to take. Knowing what's in front of and behind your target sounds good on paper and yes is one of the 4 basic fundamentals, however, calculating that in a split second self defense situation isn't always viable especially at the close distances and high stress involved with self defense situations.

    Point is, the odds of finding myself in a situation to where I'd wish I would have had more than one gun on my person, or different rounds because the bad guy was wearing battle rattle, or more rounds, etc are just way too minuscule to prepare for that on a daily basis. I'm not going grocery shopping with multiple magazines on my belt loop and kevlar body armor under my coat. I'm not out here preparing for a deployment firefight, I'm preparing to defend myself if necessary.

    To answer your question, there is a difference between being prepared and diving into ridiculous territory and we can "what if" something to death. Take your home defense training strategy you mentioned (which is good thinking BTW). Yes it's nice to have a strategy like that, but "what if" my buddies and I decided to attack your house? You're probably screwed even with your strategy if a squad of professionally trained Soldiers in military grade battle rattle and room clearing tactics (well rehearsed and executed thousands of times) decided to come for you. You could prepare better for a situation like that but you have to admit that there does come a point where enough is enough. You aren't prepping to defend your house against professional Soldiers you're prepared to defend against the average run of the mill invader.

    So yes there is a line to where ok you are just screwed. Where that line is drawn is up to the individual. For me in my daily life I'm not walking around Kandahar Afghanistan, I don't need body armor and 300 rounds, I'm going to the store a simple 9mm is plenty (if I even remember to bring it). My house doesn't have firearms strategically located all over the place with a self defense plan to repel a squad sized element of home invaders. It has a shotgun. I also don't walk around with my helmet on to go to the store. "What if" somebody shoots me in the head? Then I guess I'm just screwed.

    Long story short, to me FMJ rounds are way too risky for self defense in public. The odds of needing those over hollow point defender rounds are just not great enough to risk over penetration.
     
  4. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Yes, smack the armed criminal in the face and run and call the cops. This armed criminal, with a gun is his hand, will simply be startled and completely taken aback that you just slapped him and proceed to apologize and leave you alone.

    I hear this all the time from UK and Aussie folks. Stories of how they chase criminals away with pots and pans and broomsticks and whatnot. Difference is, criminals in the United States are armed with guns. Trying to smack somebody who has a gun pointed at you isn't the best option for obvious reasons that I really don't think anybody needs to actually explain.
     
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  5. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have doubts about average criminals in general are using soft body armor during the commission of crimes.

    While the reasons of my theory are many, the primary ones are: bulk, SBA is bulky, wearing it requires wearing a much larger shirt or wearing it over a shirt making one stand out to law enforcement.

    Cost; at around $350+ most criminals are not going to buy one and stealing one would be difficult.

    And last they don't protect a criminal from a head or leg shot, and while they can stop a round from penetrating the vest the impact from say a close range shotgun blast would still be quite disabling.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  6. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I understand your thinking, you have clarified. Not sure you got mine however.
    I was raised in Belfast at one of the epicenters that exploded in Aug. 69 to become what you’d refer to as the troubles. In the years just priorI lived on one of the major conduits used by antagonist for staging raids against each other. Home invasion was a continual threat (my house was eventually destroyed in the conflict) and just getting to school was an exercise in being in a constant state of living with adrenaline. While I prepared with various means, I got to the point where in that ‘Normalcy’ I found I was /and am still able to function well under stress. That ability has saved my life more than once.
    When I learned how to fly, I paid my instructor to put me through every failure scenario he could throw at me. I found I was able to quickly sort through my repertoire of responses to emergencies (I had more than one... including losing part of a prop in a bird strike in the 80’s) and realized at some point, my preparations, experience and training had more benefit than just the knowledge, it had prepared me to be able to adapt quickly to the unforeseen rather than panic.
    Those that have trained with weapons but never train for equipment or other failures may do well when things go right, but in a fight, when adrenaline is at 100%+, and they encounter a gun stoppage or just hear a click, what happens next may be a matter of life and death. Training with induced failures and learning to assess and clear a malfunction is more than simply reacting with trained responses; it provides one with a developing instinct to rapidly assess a problem, sort rapidly through likely solutions and select and execute a path to recover. Prep is good, but as you say, you can’t anticipate everything, but you can train your mind.
    I believe experience is king... if you live long enough. And with experience, your preparations change. I do believe in trying to train in a manner that can approximate experience. And I do believe the mental aspect that comes with such training in one area is transferable to others.
    Not implying I am such a pilot, but one of the premises behind the Top Gun Training concept was providing this type of training... the training of the mind to function under duress.
    When conducting combat training for participants using simunition in various scenarios where a mistake immediately gets you tagged is a surprising adrenaline producing exercise. I have found that among students over time not only does their ability to adapt to new, unforeseen situations vastly improve but their tactics also improve. I still learn, can still improve.
    How many people carrying concealed actually train to draw their weapon and engage? How many know how long they need? How many people know their limitations? And, what if you fumbled?
    So, if you or your buddies attack my house? Am I guaranteed to prevail? No. But, do I sound like an easy target? I figure I will get mine at some point, but until then...
    While walking from Louis Armstrong Park to the Quarter in New Orleans around 1980 I once had a fellow step from a dark doorway (an alcohol based lapse of situational awareness to be honest) , brandishing a knife, declaring I should pony up my wallet. Before he could react, I had cut his knife hand and had mine at his throat. Guess he wasn’t prepared for that. I robbed him of his blade and wallet, dropping them of with a couple officers in the Quarter. Could I have died...perhaps, but I didn’t ...neither did he. I would have preferred a quiet walk back.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  7. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be easiest to just keep a handgun in a holster if you need it within arm's reach.

    Plus it reduces the possibility that people who shouldn't have access to the gun will get their hands on it.


    .223/5.56 rifle rounds tend to penetrate walls less than any other rounds that are suitable for self defense (although they do penetrate enough that you still have to worry about what is on the other side).
     
  8. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    100 lb woman vs 250 lb man.

    Taking her gun and replacing it with 'slap and run' is cruel to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  9. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I don't know of anyone who keeps a holstered handgun on their person inside of their home. I'm sure they are a few folks who do that but I would never do that. That's just way too much in my opinion. While inside my house I'm usually in comfy pajama pants and a robe, I'm not walking around here with a firearm.

    5.56 is "ok" for home defense depending on where you live and the proximity to your neighbors etc. I was talking about carry guns in public, mainly 9mm, .38, .40, etc. FMJ in public is a very risky load. Plus 9mm FMJ isn't really even a good self defense load for the fact that it is designed to go right through stuff. It's a target load. I can see that being sort of viable in winter time in areas where large coats are prominent or something but even then there are other defense rounds much better suited and have greater stopping power than a clean hole causing 9mm FMJ.
     
  10. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I agree that training and experience are the key points here. For me personally it's a mentality thing and my own experiences are what have caused me to live life the way I do now.

    I've spent years sleeping with a loaded rifle by my bed and a loaded pistol in my hand. Years carrying a rifle every waking second of the day and even to go use the bathroom. It was necessary during those times because being attacked at any given moment was not only possible but probable. Constantly being on edge, always alert, noticing any and every little detail, etc. It's stressful to say the least. But that is war.

    When I am home I just do not want to live like that. I understand that danger exists here as well but that constant threat mindset that I keep while deployed stays in theater. When I go home I leave it behind. I take certain precautions for self defense but there is only so far I will go before my brain starts trying to switch over to combat mode. For example 2 nights ago I was sitting in my living room watching TV when folks in the neighborhood began firing off fireworks. I got spooked and immediately and instinctively reached for a rifle next to me what wasn't there. After a few seconds I shake my head and settle down, I'm home, those aren't mortars or grenades, they're fireworks.

    This isn't be being lackadaisical or anything but rather there being a line drawn for me to where after awhile I start to revert back to combat alert mode and I don't like it. I only OWB carried a few times while wearing a coat and I stopped doing it immediately because I started to LOOK for danger because I felt the weight of the firearm on my hip and my brain reverted back to alert mode. It's instinctive, anybody who LOOKED suspicious automatically caused me to creep my right hand up closer to the pistol on my hip as I did all the time on deployments. That was many years ago, after that I purchased a subcompact 9mm and the only way I'll carry is if it's a lightweight comfortable concealed holster that I forget I'm even wearing.

    I'm weird like that, but years of combat will do that to people. So for me I do my best to ensure that I can adequately protect myself and my home without triggering my own instincts and feeling uncomfortable. An AR-15 by my bedside and/or a pistol that I can feel on my hip brings up terrible memories of a way of life that I simply do not want to relive in the comfort of my home or community. So I compromise by having a simple shotgun and a small subcompact 9mm.
     
  11. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I can understand your situation. After leaving Belfast for the US, and my entire life to that point living In a place where violence was the normal state of things, I had developed a number of survival strategies became instinctual parts of my psych, rarely completely relaxed and always unconsciously scanning for potential threats and assessing those around me. It took years of being in the US to find another normal, though I have never completely achieved it. But, After a few years I learned to accept that part of myself. In comparison to those about me, I have a heightened sense of situational awareness but rather than it being a sense of danger, it became a certain calmness in most situations because I have a high level of confidence in being able to deal with emergencies, threats, and the unforeseen and to be able to rapidly assess what can be dismissed, what requires monitoring, or if some action is required of myself. I am not alone in that... as an old Irish saying goes, Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.... one beetle recognizes another. While I don’t advocate people go through what I did, my experiences had some positive lessons/revelations I share with others; if they find value in it, great, if not, that’s ok too, I am not someone who thinks I have all the answers... sometimes I find people can give me new ones...something always welcomed.
     
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  12. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I have a number of guns chambered in various loads, each with a range of application from hunting various game to self defense. What I EDC varies with concealment, weather (you allude to that), and other considerations.
    I am not a fan of 9mm FMJ either having personally witnessed a fellow shot 9-10 times point blank who managed to kill the shooter with a steel pipe.
    I have a lot of game in the bag over 60 years that gave me a lot of info on effectiveness of various rounds (& bullet design), and I have followed those reporting of real world reports of round effectiveness, including FBI testing. That provides me with a good baseline for ammo selection, but as a skeptic, I do a lot of my own testing. What I use for any task, including what I EDC is not done casually and when carried for SD must be tested to perform flawlessly in that ever I am carrying.
    I know why I have selected what for my choices, but when asked for advice by someone else What they should do, I prefer to help educate them to make an informed decision for themselves.
    BTW, I am still searching for the Hollywood MAGIC bullet and gun.
     
  13. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Noting the above, the 'elephant in the room' in a lot of these firearms/personal carry/self defense posts on forums like this is concept of the Reactionary Gap. And given the vast majority of self defense shootings involve fewer that 4 or 5 rounds at distances of less than 4 or 5 meters it is a BIG issue. Observing US gun culture form the outside I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of civilian US firearms owners who appear to be walking around with an exaggerated sense of confidence about how useful a firearm is going to be or how 'safe' carrying one in public will make them.

    Not pointing a finger at anyone here mind you. Just noting that there might be potentially millions of slightly naive firearm owners out there who imagine just owning a firearm is going to keep them 'safe' when in fact the opposite is more likely because they lack training and situational awareness.
     
  14. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    It is basic human nature for one to believe they have a situation under control, when in fact they do not. It has nothing to do with the ownership or possession of a firearm, as the belief exists independently of the firearm. Before the legal carrying a firearms became widespread, the belief was prominent with those who took basic self defense classes, and believed a few courses in foreign martial arts made them competent and capable enough to handle whatever the world threw at them.
     
  15. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    Ah the old "let the maid do it" self defense method eh?
    And how many times have you defeated an armed assailant in hand to hand and then fled on foot nonnie?
     
  16. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We're not gun crazy in the UK, so never.
     
  17. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    So what you're saying is, you have exactly zero experience employing that technique you push as more than sufficient and therefore your opinion is worth that experiential value.

    You've plenty of gun crime, even with a near total ban.
    And your violent crime is absurd.
     
  18. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are obviously unaware of the types of guns we can own. I bet you think hand guns are banned.
     
  19. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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    Do you not know what the word near means dearie?
     
  20. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do and you are obviously unaware of the types of guns we can own. I bet you think hand guns are banned.
     
  21. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

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  22. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what is the procedure to get a concealed carry permit allowing you to carry a handgun outside your home?
     
  23. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Concealed carried permits do not exist, there's no need in a civilised society.

    Can you list what types of firearms we own and use in the UK? Did you know we have hand guns but how long the barrels and grip must be? Are you one of the few Americans that can grasp gun laws in the UK? It's just that it seems to fly through one ear and out the other of Americans with nothing in the middle to stop it.
     
  24. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then you are at the mercy of the criminals when outside of your home.

    I could care less, I don't live there and have no thoughts of moving to the rapidly transitioning into a Sharia s-hole.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  25. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We're not paranoid about criminals and enemies, maybe it's because you live in a violent culture.

    You should care, Americans should care then maybe one day the stupid posts might stop.
     

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