Feminist activist in Iran sentenced to 24 years in prison for removing hijab.

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by JessCurious, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you go to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (ushmm.org) and look up their articles "Timeline of Iranian
    Holocaust Denial" and "Holocaust Denial in Iran." They also have an article on the Iranian Government sponsored cartoon
    contest mocking the Holocaust. Or, check-out www.newsweek.com/irans-ayatollah-khamenei-posts-holocaust-denial-video. If
    this doesn't satisfy you, I can post numerous others, or you can enter Iran Holocaust Denial in your computers search engine
    and get all the information you could possibly want.
     
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  2. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    my original post contained links on the stories I mentioned. Or, you can enter the names in your computers search engine.
     
  3. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    So why are Iranian Jews so happy in that country?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-state-we-feel-secure-and-happy-a6934931.html
     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Which seems to indicate you don't know many feminists or you don't know what is radical or not radical...


    …..women wanting the same rights as men is NOT radical even if some her believe that to be true...


    it would be funny to find out what you think is "radical"..


    feminism
    noun
    fem·i·nism | \ ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm \
    Definition of feminism


    1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
    2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests



    Guess you couldn't address my post...
     
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  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not true .. there is a big difference between a regular Feminist and the radical ones. The main difference is that a normal feminist wants equal rights - equal treatment. The radical ones want power and control - they want rights for Women but, want to suppress the rights of Men.
     
  6. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    You are dodging my question, why cant i get that pregnancy money? Its inequality that i cant get it.
     
  7. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    The Independent was a left-wing newspaper that has since stopped printing. It is not an objective source of information.
    As for Jews Iran alledgedly saying they are happy there, they probably don't dare say otherwise. Its also possible that Jews there
    don't know about the Holocaust since Iran doesn't have a free press and the government controls everything that people
    hear, and everything they learn in the educational system. A Government that denies the Holocaust is hardly likely to
    teach about it objectively.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  8. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Start a thread about it and invite me. You made a claim that "feminism is a cancer" My mother was successful, my wife and 2 daughters are successful as well. I am having a hard time understand how you can see the important women in your life as less than equal.

    I understand if you are not comfortable answering.
     
  9. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    It is not the rights of women but the mores of society which are of concern here. Feminists demand equal outcomes with regard to the desirable positions in society.

    For instance, there is a widespread effort to get more women into STEM jobs. Special programs for school girls try to get them interested in STEM and there is general criticism of the STEM culture all in an attempt to equalize the number of men and women with these professions.

    But it is all for nought. Women pushed into STEM programs or hired for STEM jobs wash out at a much greater rate than men. Not only are resources wasted but the lives of the women so guided into a field inappropriate for their talents and interests is greatly damaged.

    No wonder women are unhappy.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    "" suggests that women and men are equal ignoring the fact that men and women have different capabilities and different motivations""


    So you think that rights should be allotted based on """ different capabilities and different motivations""" ??????


    I don't. I believe every American citizen should have the same rights as other American citizens.




    OF COURSE you didn't answer the pertinent question:

    So you think that rights should be allotted based on """ different capabilities and different motivations""" ??????


    Women have as much right to try and fail as men do.....


    Their rights are NOT based on what profession they are in or what skills they have .



    So you think that rights should be allotted based on """ different capabilities and different motivations""" ??????

    And this thread is about RIGHTS, not skills or talents….



    Sorry all the women you know are unhappy.....I can't imagine why ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  11. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    Of course rights and responsibilities should be different for people of different capabilities.

    And the unhappiness of women is documented by sociological surveys not my personal anecdotes.

    Why do you think women are unhappy?
     
  12. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's the real problem:
    we all have our personal lives to live. We have jobs, and probably for a lot of us, our job/profession doesn't stand still, and we have to be continually learning to keep up. We have families, or at least personal lives, which take up a fair amount of time.

    We can't all be specialists in automobile transmissions, in central heating, in urinary tract infections: when we -- at least when I -- have problems in these areas, I call a specialist, who has spent his/her whole adult life accumulating experience in dealing with these. If they don't do a good job, I get another one. It's the division of labor, a great human leap forward.

    And ... we sort of do the same thing in politics, especially in foreign affairs. We elect a politician, who presumabily hires specialists, who know all about Russia, Iran, China ... and we hope they make the right decisions, the way I trust my mechanic to sort out my transmission, my plumber to sort out my central heating and my surgeon to sort out my urinary tract infection.

    But .... this wonderful invention, the division of labor, doesn't seem to work when it comes to politics, especially foreign policy, where it's not obvious what we should do. For the last twenty five years, our experts in foreign policy, under both Democrats and Republicans, are like mechanics who 'fix' your car and then the gear box drops out when you go over a bump, are like central heating experts who 'fix' your central heating and then the boiler explodes, are like blader and urinary tract surgeons who operate on you and when you wake up ...... well, let's not go there.

    So.... I'm afraid we have to become our own specialists here. Few people posting on this forum know much about Russia, Iran, or China. (Quick question for those who think they do: how many Jews are in the Iranian Parliament? What is the lower boundary of the estimated number of dead from the famine resulting from the Great Leap Forward under Mao, and what was the lower boundary estimate of the number of dead from the Taiping Rebellion? (Never heard of the latter? Then you have no business having an opinion on China.) How many Russians died fighting Hitler, compared to Americans who died? What was the ratio? (You can be off by a factor of 5). Specialist question in the latter field: up until a decade or so ago, you used to see old women holding photographs of young men, standing outside subway stops and other heavily-trafficked areas in the big cities. What were they doing? Alternate question: after Gorbachev dismantled communism peacefully in the USSR, and withdrew from Eastern Europe, again peacefully, a promise was made to him re. NATO expansion. What was it, and was it kept?

    We need to understand these three societies. This doesn't mean passing a history exam, but it does mean knowing something about their histories, and how the ordinary citizens feel about their governments today -- with the understanding that these countries, just like the US, are not monolithic in their internal political lives, and also understanding that all three are in the process of change; all three are being gripped by the same process that has hold of the USA.

    The more of us who do get some minimal understanding, and who demand of our representatives a sensible policy towards these countries, the better our chances of avoiding a big stupid war at some point in the future.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  13. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Christians walk around with a little icon of a man nailed to a cross around their necks. In some places, they actually harm themselves.
     
  14. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problem is that in foreign affairs, all sides lie a great deal. It is difficult to sort out truth from falsehood.
    Whatever the truth about the things the Iranian, or American, regimes do to each other or to each others' allies, the fact is that both societies, if they change, are going to be changed from the inside, and by people who are basically loyal to their countries.

    I have no idea how the Iranian regime views the world in general, or American in particular, but the American regime, under either Party, has no sense of other nations' national pride. America has never experienced a threat to its own national integrity, and its citizens cannot imagine how it might feel to be in a situation where another power thinks it can determine who the leadership of America will be -- the recent hoo-ha over "Russian interference", which is largely bogus, notwithstanding.
     
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  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    "" suggests that women and men are equal ignoring the fact that men and women have different capabilities and different motivations""


    So you think that rights should be allotted based on """ different capabilities and different motivations""" ??????


    I don't. I believe every American citizen should have the same rights as other American citizens.






    OF COURSE you didn't answer the pertinent question:

    So you think that rights should be allotted based on """ different capabilities and different motivations""" ??????


    Women have as much right to try and fail as men do.....


    Their rights are NOT based on what profession they are in or what skills they have .



    So you think that rights should be allotted based on """ different capabilities and different motivations""" ??????

    And this thread is about RIGHTS, not skills or talents….



    Sorry all the women you know are unhappy.....I can't imagine why ;)





    OMGAWD! You think rights should be bestowed based on "capabilities"

    …wouldn't it be interesting to find out what YOUR qualifications for having rights are....




    Blue eyes?

    Male sex organs?


    The ability to lift 400 pounds?

    Knowing how to play football?

    Being an astrophysicist?


    What rights do one year old children have? Any??? They aren't capable of much....so do they not have the right to not be beaten or is that OK because they haven't got much in the way of "qualifications" ??????????????????????





    No credible proof just wishful thinking by skewed websites.




    I don't know and neither do YOU because, and here's Big Surprise for YOU, all women are not alike, they are not clones, not cattle....if you want to know why a woman is unhappy you have to ask her and then LISTEN to the reply.



    Have you done that with every woman ??? NO, you have not....

    ALL woman are NOT unhappy as I know many , many happy women...
     
  16. Pycckia

    Pycckia Well-Known Member

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    Children do not have the right to sign contracts or consent to sex.

    Just google "women unhappy" and you will have more than enough confirmation that women are unhappier now than in the 1970's.

    You are just refusing to face well documented facts and using anecdotal data to refute well constructed sociological surveys.
     
  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    OMGAWD! You think rights should be bestowed based on "capabilities"

    …wouldn't it be interesting to find out what YOUR qualifications for having rights are....



    Blue eyes?

    Male sex organs?


    The ability to lift 400 pounds?

    Knowing how to play football?

    Being an astrophysicist?


    What rights do one year old children have? Any??? They aren't capable of much....so do they not have the right to not be beaten or is that OK because they haven't got much in the way of "qualifications" ??????????????????????

    SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS ….:)





    Are you saying those are the ONLY rights Americans have !!!????? OMG!!!

    It's not true and YOU have no way of knowing....it seems that idea does make you happy ….

    I refuted you:

    I don't know and neither do YOU because, and here's Big Surprise for YOU, all women are not alike, they are not clones, not cattle....if you want to know why a woman is unhappy you have to ask her and then LISTEN to the reply.



    Have you done that with every woman ??? NO, you have not....


    ALL woman are NOT unhappy as I know many , many happy women...


    None of which prove anything ...you have shown NO proof....
     
  18. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I realize that, JessCurious, but was asking Iranian Monitor if this had been reported in the Iranian media. He mentioned propaganda.
     
  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Why would I address your post when you're only going to PATHETICALLY report me when you decide that a reply is too difficult? :roflol:
     
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    UH, duh, posters cannot have posts removed for being "too difficult to reply to""...….but it's a good excuse when you have no answers...
     
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  21. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what you have said; indeed there isn't a single phrase in your post which I can quibble with at all. There are things left unsaid in your post, however, that need to be said too. One of them is this:

    The lies against Iran aren't merely the kind that are spun by the US government (even though it sometimes runs with them too, dressing them up a bit to make them more realistic). Many of them are essentially spun by various groups within America who each are either pushing their own agenda or fighting their own wars for turf and influence. Many of these lies aren't sophisticated lies that would work if addressed really to people who live in Iran. They are akin to taking arguments between two fundamentally clueless people in Iran about America (no matter how learned in other things), who have their own "news outlets", with one trying to prove the evil of America to the other by running with stories such as: "Black civil rights worker held in a CIA prison dies after being tortured", taking facts from an actual case involving some random black person incarcerated on drug offenses dying in some state prison for unknown causes (which may or may not have involved neglect or abuse by state prison guards) relying on information passed by informants affiliated to an extremist black organization with an avowed aim to bring about the violent overthrow of the US government which claims all drug offenses are trumped up charges to suppress blacks.

    Imagine trying to tackle such a story through reason, logic and facts, recognizing of course that real details about may not be easy to find as no one is really even talking about the story in America, but understanding the story on its face doesn't make sense. In the process, while arguing the case, being accused of being a CIA agent, and/or a supporter of slavery, by those who support the group in question in Iran and having random pictures from America's past involving slavery and then segregation, and its more immediate present from places such as Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, mixed in with pictures from another "Christian land", thrown in the equation!

    Even if you are sympathetic to the underlying civil rights cause, but not of the ignorant tactics, you would find yourself alienated by this dynamic. This dynamic, as far as I am concerned, would be a greater threat to Iran (and a desire to have an informed populace and policy) than to America. And the same is true about what is being done against Iran. The threat from those lies (and then pushing people in positions of power to tell them and cover them up) a greater threat to America than to Iran. Against Iran, there are truths to push any agenda (whether conciliatory or hostile) -- you don't need these lies to drive your policies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  22. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned "propaganda" about the kind of "facts" being spun around her case which I had taken issue with. Not anything else - and I have already mentioned that (stripped of the propaganda editorial and spin) the report from the US government operated site I referred to was credible enough. In fact, I feel bad for people like her as she appear to me a victim of not just rules and policies I believe can be properly criticized in many cases, but tactics which are meant to serve ulterior motives -- motives relating to efforts to 'win a war against Iran on the cheap', i.e. through Iranians overthrowing the regime and suffering the consequences rather than having American soldiers bleed for this cause.

    Take her case. Stripped of the propaganda, you have what appears a more activist, but otherwise rather typical, strictly middle class, young Iranian girl who isn't happy with how things are run in Iran. She visits websites and social media organs that tell her to do something about it -- and invite her to protest things in Iran, specifying the time and place for these protests. She participates in anti-regime protests organized by these outside groups through the social media last year -- and ends up arrested and jailed for 1 year. She gets out and somehow is not deterred by the experience. She follows the lead of these same organizations telling her to go in public without any scarf and join others in such and such place at such and such time, ostensibly to protest the hijab rules (in reality, to further the outside causes I mentioned). She does and this time she is arrested for 'inciting public immorality' -- and gets the book thrown at her, with her prior conviction used to increase her sentence, now facing spending 15 (not 24) years in prison.

    She is a victim for sure. But of who is the more difficult question to answer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  23. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. I agree absolutely. One thing 'foreigners' like to run with, and especially Communist foreigners, is America's "political prisoners". ( Communists always have many of these, and they're sensitive about it, so they look for opportunities to play "You're another".)

    When I used to visit the Soviet Union, when it existed, I would always hear about Leonard Peltier, and Mumia Abu Jamal, to name but two, who were supposedly political prisoners. It was practically impossible to explain that the evidence against these two men -- both of whom murdered policemen in cold blood -- was overwhelming. You might make a case that their motivations were good (although it would be perverse), or that they were provoked, or did what they did in the excitement of the moment... but not that they were not guilty of deliberately killing policemen -- in Peltier's case, men who were wounded and lying on the ground, in Mumia's case, shooting a man in the back.

    But people hear what they want to hear. Now the various still-imprisoned terrorists, who also have innocent blood on their hand, are bandied about by the Hard Left as 'political prisoners'. (Most of the historic cases, like Sacco and Vanzetti, are also lies, or at least much more complicated than the simple Howard Zinn frame-up myths will tell you.)

    In the United States -- let's get it out in the open -- it is a certain very powerful faction of hard-line Zionists who are the most shameless about lying. In fact, most American Jews are much more reasonable about the Israeli-Palestine conflict, but they don't form a powerful lobby.

    I recall a few years ago, there was circulating a story that Iran was going to make Jews wear yellow stars on their clothes, like the Nazis. It was OBVIOUS that this was total idiotic nonsense. But it went the rounds for a while. It's the one place where the 'Right', if you can call it that, practices the same sort of thought-control, getting people fired, smearing people, tactics as the Left does.

    However ... the danger with being very powerful is that you get arrogant. And I believe the hardline Zionists -- who are just like all hardline nationalists -- are beginning to lose credibility, even on the Right.

    They overstep the mark too much: they get people denied tenure, for example, which in today's atmosphere in the US, makes rightwingers like me very uneasy, to say the least, because we're trying to make the argument that universities should welcome a diversity of political views among their academic staff. And here come our ultra-Zionist friends who use exactly the same tactics as the hardline Left use to purge the teaching staff of people whose views they dislike.

    They have also way overplayed their hand with respect to the charge of 'anti-Semitism', which they want to equate with criticism of Israel. In the short term, this works, just like the Left's use of the term 'racist' to smear anyone who doesn't toe their political line. But facts are stubborn things, and the truth will eventually out.

    So keep plugging away. Your posts cause cognitive dissonance. Most Americans assume that anyone who doesn't simply endorse the official view of Iran as a monolithic totalitarian Islamist hell, determined to conquer the world, or at least the Middle East, must be an agent of the Iranian government. It's so much easier to think in terms of Black and White, Good and Evil.

    But their minds can be changed. As someone else said, a hundred years ago, facing mass hysteria at that time, our task at the moment is to "patiently explain".
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  24. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but I think you missed what I said. I said that I don't think there are too many feminists who aren't radical. I didn't say that there is no difference between regular feminists and radical feminists.
     
  25. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What makes it a "lucrative source of income?"

    Are you talking about when it was revealing some degree of skin? If you tell me that at some point in the past in the West, people were prosecuted for anything other than exposing their genitals, chest or ass, I will be STUNNED! I'd even be stunned if men were prosecuted for going shirtless!

    Sure, but as long as the women are NOT "in public with short skirts, see through clothing, bikinis" then having head cover that is as MINIMAL as seen in those pictures is totally pointless! Would the women in those pictures actually risk prosecution if they didn't have the barely existent head cover?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019

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