Some older Americans say millennials’ student debt is their own fault

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Bluesguy, Sep 14, 2019.

  1. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    You’ve said the above before, but you’re wrong. Classes on history, language, culture, art, politics, economics — they aren’t useless luxuries.

    The main point of a college degree is to teach you to analyze and think, and provide you a base of knowledge about the world so you have context on which to base your analysis and conclusions. It’s also about exposing you to different ideas, teaching you to challenge your own assumptions about the world, and understand how other people live.

    My daughter’s STEM college recognizes this. Besides the usual distribution requirements, her school requires two major projects: a capstone project in their major, and a non-science project that requires you to work on something with real world impact. Because their STEM work will be done in service to humanity, and so it’s important to understand humanity.

    Plus, the world needs artists and writers and philosophers and poets and musicians and all the rest. They are what make the human experience more than just a daily scrabble for survival.
     
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  2. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I'll get a copy!
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  3. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or, we can decide to not pay for any of that.

    So perhaps you and your buddies at the country club can start a charity fund and pay for hundreds of kids to go to college. Instead, you are advocating that plumber Joe pay for those college educations. Would you be willing to give, say, 40% of your yearly income to a charity college fund? Why not?
     
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  4. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    Sure. But then come up with an alternative solution to the problem.


    *Shrug.* Things that benefit society as a whole should be paid for by society. I support a strongly progressive tax system, which by definition means I will pay far more in taxes than you. I’m willing to do that. I’m not willing to do it entirely by myself, because I could bankrupt myself without making an appreciable dent in the problem. When the problem is systemic you fix the system, you don’t try to paper it over with haphazard charity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  5. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, this is interesting. In a previous post, you complained "I will be happy if my grandkids’ generation doesn’t have to go through what we’ve gone through to save for and pay for a college education." For someone claiming they pay more in taxes than I do, why did you have to scrimp and save and take loans to pay for your daughter's education? It shouldn't have been that hard if "you pay far more in taxes than I do."

    So at that point, I was wondering why it was so hard for you, you being in the top 15% and all. Then I looked up what it takes to be in the top 15%. As it turns out, discretion should be the better part of valor when it comes to claims of "I make more money than you" on the internet.

    The amount it takes to be top 15% is sort of embarrassing for the American people to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a bad income and I am certainly not degrading you. Just that I thought the top 15% would require much, much more, hence the "country club" comment. As it turns out, you don't pay "far more in taxes" than me. (Of course, if you live in Cali or NY, maybe you do pay way more in taxes than me)

    Anyway, of course you realize "what benefits society" is entirely subjective. People living within their means and not being a burden on his fellow man is also a benefit to society. The free market will take care of the college tuition problem without any forced payments from the taxpayer. I will never understand why people believe that other people they don't even know should pay for their kids' stuff.



     
  6. hudson1955

    hudson1955 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I personally don't believe Ivy league schools are worth the tuition they charge. I would and did pay for my kids to attend State Universities and paid cash. Just as I and my husband did. My husband is a surgeon and I have a degree in information management, health care management and a minor in Biology.

    And, I taught my boys to speak up if a Professor talked Politics in a class that was not related to Politics and when they pushed one Party over another, because that is not the Education we are paying for.
     
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  7. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    *Shrug.* You're the one who accused me of being wealthy. When you did that, I assumed you understood what "top 15% of income" meant. If you consider that rich, then I pay far more in taxes than you.

    Yep, the income graph doesn't go seriously vertical until around 10%.

    For those of you who haven't looked it up, top 20% equates to around $100,000 a year. Top 15% equates to around $200,000. Top 10% is something like $400,000.

    Sure it is. That's why we have political discussions.

    But I think it's pretty much a no-brainer that in a global economy such as we have now, "educated populace" is clearly a societal benefit.

    If we were just competing against each other for jobs and such, that would be one thing. Then it's more of an individual benefit.

    But when we as a country are competing against other countries, education becomes a competitive edge, and becomes a societal benefit, lest we ALL lose economic power to our overseas competitors.

    This is true. But I think you're conflating two separate things here.

    When you say someone is a burden society, it typically refers to people receiving some sort of welfare. When you say people "living beyond their means", you typically mean someone being fiscally irresponsible -- i.e., running up large debts.

    People on welfare are not people "living beyond their means" in the sense of being fiscally irresponsible. They're people whose incomes are so low that you effectively can't live on it, at least not in a way you would wish on them. Many of them work full-time, so they're not lazy. Many others have issues -- mental, physical, addiction -- that present significant barriers to earning income.

    So just be clear on what you're referring to here.

    The "free market" is a marvel, but it requires regulation for a reason. There are situations where the free market doesn't work well, either because the profit motive isn't there (basic scientific research, for example) or because the profit motive incentivizes people to act against the common good (tragedy of the commons, for example).

    Specifically, the free market doesn't work well in situations where something is a societal good, rather than a private benefit. The free market necessarily requires that some people go without, and also necessarily distinguishes the haves and have nots through one mechanism: ability to pay. When it comes to things like education and health care, where it doesn't make societal sense to base access on ability to pay, the free market breaks down.

    Because like it or not we are part of a society. Sometimes it is more efficient, humane and just to address things as a society, not leave it up to individuals.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It's outrageous, isn't it. And it's always the very people who claim to be down with the poor folk. The ones who 'truly care'.
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, no. The MAIN point of a tertiary education is to enhance your job prospects and increase your earnings. Doesn't matter whether you 'understand how other people live' if you can't get a freaking job, does it.

    Philosophy is a luxury that few can afford. Further, the assumption that kids are seeking it or need it is incredibly insular thinking. PLENTY of kids want none of that stuff.
     
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  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I did. Recreational (aka, Arts & Humanities) courses fund vocational courses. Job done.
     
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  11. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. College is not just an advanced form of vo-tech. Employers expect certain intangibles from college grads, including a clue about the world, it’s history, and how it works. It’s part of what makes them preferable employees.
     
  12. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Well, I for one support discharge of student debt and complete revamping of the system.
    These days colleges build new campuses a life more often then they need to. They do major remodelings every year as well. Do you know how much a university president gets paid? Their salaries reach to $500k. Why does a college or university need a football team? College sports is like the dumbest invention ever.

    Do you know why all of this is happening? Because they have unlimited supply of money. It doesn’t matter which degrees they sell - they get equal amount for an accountant or someone with a philosophy degree.

    In my opinion, the US aid should be based on grades - if you got an A for the course, you pay 10% for that course. B - 20%, C - 30%, anything lower than a C - you pay 100%. And, the aid should adjusted based on the degree you pursue - if it’s in English then I’d drop the aid by 50% to discourage it. If it’s for a degree in high demand area then the student should pay minimum possible.

    I’m sorry for those who paid in full, but if this continues we will have a generation with no retirement savings, which will make a major toll on the economy. And if government continues to give away money like it does now to the colleges, the tuition is going to become so expensive, most people will not be able to afford going to college for any reason, even to become a doctor.
    Whether you like it or not, student loans must be discharged, or at least reduced by 70-80%, if you don’t want a future time bomb exploding under the economy.
     
  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. Some of the most successful STEM graduates I've encountered (and I'm around STEM grads constantly, professionally and personally) are relative dimwits, who know and care nothing of history, philosophy, or poetry. And you can't seriously suggest that plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc need that stuff to gain and hold very well paid jobs.

    Corp employers aren't looking for grads with a good grasp of philosophy, they're looking for kids who aced their finals (with honours), and present as hungry and motivated.
     
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  14. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    As I said, we will have to agree to disagree.

    And BTW, plumbers and electricians are tradesmen. The expectations are different.
     
  15. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    That doesn't justify putting me and other American taxpayers who did not graduate from college paying for those who did. Have them file class action lawsuits against the universities and force them to settle and refund tuitions. And the problems with trying to weigh by grade is professors will just award good grades.
     
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  16. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The number one issue with millenials... their inability analyze situations, problem solve, think out of the box, and be responsible for those decisions.

    We have been made into little robots, where their only ability to execute a solution is to tell them exactly what you want them to do, the steps to do it, and hope that no issue arises that stops them I their tracks.

    This thread is no exception.

    They were told to go to college, took out debt that was irresponsible, selected majors that were worthless, and have created themselves as victims. Nobody told them the exact steps, or considerations, sonos these little snow flakes think they have no responsibility and are entitled to be bailed out.

    This is wholly Generation X's fault for babying the **** out of these kids, giving everybody a trophy, and helicopter parenting.

    We now have a near entire generation of robots incapable of being adults. Good lord.
     
  17. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Similar story.

    Parents didn't have the money to send their three kids to college. I joined the national guard, started school a semester late, worked at least 2 jobs during school and graduated with a science degree with 17,000 in loans.

    All three of my parents kids have college degrees, 2 of them masters (I'm the least educated). All three paid off their loans.

    Oh... and all three went to state schools.
     
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  18. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    And what year did you do this?
     
  19. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But it isn't a no-brainer that the free market and competition can't achieve that "societal benefit." It already has for the most part.

    Private benefits are a societal good. The free market encourages people to be productive. Taxpayer handouts encourage sloth, graft and corruption. The "ability to pay" is generally an indication of one's contributions/productivity to others/the economy/society. There is no greater motivator than the free market. There is no greater disincentive than taxpayer funded, government enforced handouts.

    As for the "tragedy of the commons," taking taxpayer funds and dumping them into a "common education fund" is certainly going to lead to tragedy. It is a fact that individuals take better care of what they had to work for than what they receive for free. Wasn't that the point? The farmers would take better care of their own land than they did the common land?

    If the efficiency matters, this taxpayer funded free college education couldn't be given to everyone in the country, could it? For example, if a 75 year old person decides they want to get a college degree, should the taxpayer pay for that? What if someone with an IQ of 60 wants to get a degree in philosophy? Would that be funded?

    Now, it could be said that the colleges themselves would police the above, and someone with a 60 IQ isn't going to be accepted. But with the vast amounts of money that would be free for the taking, lots of colleges would lower their standards and accept everyone that applied just to receive those taxpayer funded gifts. This happens now with all the educational grants that currently exist. Community Colleges certainly take advantage of this and just about anyone will be accepted. Private educational institutions routinely pop up out of the blue to cash in on the taxpayer largesse.

    If we are going to give away all this taxpayer money "for the betterment of society," shouldn't the taxpayer have the right to make sure that society is actually benefitting? Should the taxpayer have the authority to monitor whether each individual receiving the free money is actually contributing to the betterment of society? Perhaps the student will have to give several years of their life "bettering society" in return for what they received from the taxpayer? Like maybe he/she could come mow my lawn for three years to pay me back?

    And surely there would need to be an avenue to discontinue funding to someone who is not "bettering society"? Would this be done by grades possibly? Might that perhaps lead to corruption amongst colleges/teachers because they would not want to lose all those "cash cows" that would be running around the campus?

    To maintain efficiency and the "betterment of society," we are probably going to need a central planning authority who would determine which students get the benefit, what degrees they must get, and what performance they must have to continue receiving the benefit. Without this, the taxpayer would have no way to determine if the money is being used efficiently. After all, if the taxpayer is paying, the taxpayer certainly should have a say in how that money is being spent. Would not this entail much tighter government regulation of colleges and what they teach?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  20. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Work is an amazing antidote to a multitude of problems, is it not?
     
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  21. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I graduated in 02
     

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