Inverse Discrimination? Or, The New Face of America?

But, that's Chicago Water Works. That's a government job and predicated on (no doubt) seniority, wait lists and timing of the applicant. I don't think he would have been denied employment because he was Black. Though, he might have never been offered employment had he not been placed on the hire list long ago.

So, yeah. I mean, I get the whole Seniority thing and the need to "pay your dues" so to speak with time in wait or time on the job at a lower level before promotion to a higher level. What I'm talking about is total, blatant and in your face hiring discrimination that screams at you when you walk into the door of a Public Facing Privately Owned Establishment where you know full well there was no wait list and there was no seniority issues that precluded 100% of all other Ethnic Groups from the employee base.

I have no idea why we accept that kind of behavior from other Minority Business Owners but revile that same behavior in White Business Owners. When I walk into Black owned barbershop, I don't really care who cuts my hair as long as they know what they are doing. Yet, the vast majority of people I see in Black owned barbershops have been Black People. Yet, these businesses were in predominantly Black neighborhoods. So, how many People of a different ethnicity ever sought to contract with the owner to work there? Probably none to precious few would be my guess. Which no doubt explains why I've only had three haircuts from Whites working in Black owned barbershops out where live.

If America wants to be diverse, it is going to have to work at it. If we pretend to be diverse, yet fail to put our literal money where our mouth is - then we cannot expect real progress along these lines. That's my bigger (and final) point on this OP.

 

Listen I am not saying it doesnt exists, but if you have a talent /skill they need they will hire you. Jesus I dont see rampant racism today from Illinois to south Carolina to Idaho.

But I never walked a mile in your shoes..

 

You're emoting rather than thinking. Whining about civil rights is only viable if it can be proven that someone was denied a job on the basis of race, religion, etc. Part of the process of assimilation is the attraction of newcomers to areas where they can find cultural and linguistic support systems that help gain entry to economic and social structures. There are Brazilian and Guatemalan neighborhoods today just as there were Little Italy and Chinatown neighborhoods 100 years ago. The children of the people drawn by necessity to these enclaves will grow up more integrated into society and be culturally, economically, and linguistically fluent. Their children will very likely live in a different geographic area without the need of a support community. In fact, by the third generation the vast majority of them will speak only English in the home and view their immigrant heritage much the way an Italian American whose great grandfather lived in Little Italy does.

In other words, don't worry. Things are going just as they always have.

 

Maybe you were thinking of 'de jure" and misapplied the term?

 

It has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with work ethic. Here in Phoenix this trend started in the early '90s. I've always said "Mexicans didn't come to America and steal the jobs. It was the fat lazy American white boy that gave them the job." To this day Phoenix still has a massive abundance of blue collar job openings, mainly construction that pay upwards of $25/hr with health ins, company matching retirement, vacation pay, company vehicle and as much overtime as you want. Yet at nearly every street corner there are white millinneals with cardboard signs begging for money. That's pathetic.

 

That has not been the History of this country. There is a very good reason why Civil Rights Legislation in this regard was necessary. Those who did not want such legislation and who fought against it, were the very same people who wanted to maintain the status quo where very well qualified candidates would be denied simply because of the color of their skin. We can go down throughout our Nation's History and see this old refrain being played out time and time again. This is not new or news.

What is new and what is news is the fact that you now see blatant employment discrimination being run by Minority Immigrants in this country. 1) They have been in this country long enough now to have lived through a few economic cycles. 2) They have benefited from Civil Rights Legislation through these economic cycles while never having to feel the sting that brought these Rights into existence. 3) They have no respect for the History of our Nation as it relates to these Civil Rights accomplishments that make their Life here in the United States as affluent as it is and/or as it would be relative to their Native Homeland. 4) Because of this lack of respect and in many cases outright ignorance of our Nation's History and struggles for justice, they repeat History.

What's the old saying? Those who refuse to learn from the failures of History are doomed to what...? Repeat it. Jesus, has nothing to do with this.

And, maybe that's the coup de grace right there. I see things from a Historical perspective and how failures to recognize past transgressions only lead to guaranteed failure of exacting kinds in the future. All one need do is study the History of our Nation and then open their eyes to what's going on around them right now. This is a a growing issue and it will continue until we end up living in a Nation so epic in its Sectarian Divisions across all Social strata that you will be hard pressed to find genuine National Unity along any lines that truly matter.

People who care about this country don't want to see it disintegrate into a morass of disharmony, disunity and disconnected social stratum on ever level. We are not being honest with ourselves about the deep level of division within our own boarders. It is like we enjoy living in a perpetual state of denial soup. When we hear the word "Sectarian" we often have flashes of thought about the Middle East. Yet, the United States is falling into Sectarian Division faster than almost any nation on earth at this point and for the most part we ignore that it is even happening to us.

It is my hope that we answer the call and make a serious course change relative to our Moral compass before it is too late. We can still do this, but it will take a level of unity unparalleled in American History.

 

My great grands were Slovenian "Mother side" and My great grand on my fathers side were Italian! Both were sponsored and all could speak descent English when they arrived and were soon naturalized and American citizens.. That said, the biggest problem with Latin migrants is the inability to speak English and this is a huge disadvantage and huge hurdle towards naturalization!

 

I see this a lot as well. I always just assumed they were hiring family. I guess I have no basis for that assumption, but it still seems likely.

I think it worth noting that its more common outside the US for children to take over the family business from their parents, after having been employed by them. Probably why its primarily 'OTWs' still doing it.

 

Ever been to Mexico proper? I have. Ever drive down the street in a poor neighborhood in Mexico proper? I have. It brings tears to your eyes. It humbles the **** out you real quick. You feel punched in the gut and you don't even live there. You realize just how good you have it in the United States with access to the amenities of life that the people you are now observing will never have. I got out and walked the streets of a Mexican City once. Seeing people living in Cement Blocks, literally, in temperatures exceeding 90-degrees outside. Unbearable and unreal to me. Yet, very real to those who live there daily. Literal dirt for floors in their Cement Block House no bigger than 500 square feet. I'm not talking about dirty floors. I said literal dirt as THE floor. That's all they had. Many could not even afford to pay an electric bill, so they had not so much as a gad damn fan to blow over their bodies. I've seen the same damn thing in Brazilian Favelas and walked streets having the same damn vibe. Humbled, yet again. I've seen this in my travels to Africa, but on a scale that would blow your mind.

We are so damn fortunate to be living here in the United States and you don't realize that until get out in the world and see how other people live. So, when you say "Work Ethic," it is very important to to remember that when a person is so incredibly hungry for a better way of life, they will work for wages that are exceedingly below that which the typical US Citizen would deem even remotely acceptable and they will sleep 5-20 people to a house or apartment - all to avoid the tragedy that is their Homeland and Homeland Lifestyle.

STV, I don't blame them. I'm simply saying, how can you come form THAT way of life to here and then discriminate on a level where 100% of your workforce looks like nothing but you as the owner. Now, you might conclude that this is indeed the reason! You might say that they know what life is like in their home country, so they make sure that their people living here now don't have to go back to that. Maybe that's a legit goal - but it does not make it right. And, that comes from someone who has seen the lack up close and personal.

I'm simply saying that the United States cannot afford to go backwards while calling it progress.

We have White Mills over here doing the same thing. You see them all the time in San Francisco and Oakland no doubt. However, over here the cost of living is so extremely high that if you took that job at McDonald's or Popeye's you would still be living on the streets as the so-called "Working Poor." You would not have the ability to live independently. This gets back to the 5-15 sharing a single Unit in many cases within some cultures. You don't see White People, or Black People doing a lot of that around these parts.

I have always said that Black People, should take their $4 trillion and learn to work together to build Industry they can own and operate. But, I have never suggested that those same Black People, should discriminate in the hiring practices of the Industries they build. The problem with Black People, is that they have forgotten how to work together. They have long since forgotten the way of their Ancestors and what made them such great People thousands of years ago. They have forgotten that Community and Family is everything. Still, if they ever learn how to use their contribution of USD GDP to build infrastructure on United States soil that they own, they can change the course of History for their brothers and sisters all over the world while never once discriminating against anyone merely because of the color of their skin.

Instead, Blacks are being exploited in Africa right now by China, much the same way they have been exploited by Dutch, French, Spanish, English, and a host of others from outside their continental boundaries over the millennia. So, China, is not breaking new ground here. Yet, China, hires Africans in Africa to do the work that will largely benefit China in its Homeland. China is not in Africa today because it feels philanthropic or somehow chivalrous towards Black People. China is there because it knows that its future is tied and linked to African Natural Resources. But, I digress.

 

Immigrants today are acquiring English at least as quickly as previous generations of immigrants.

 

I disagree. I know quite a few older illegals that their grandchildren have to translate for them..

 

Older immigrants from Italy 100 years ago were less likely to fully acquire English as well. The myth of great grandpa stepping off the boat and becoming fluent in a few months is horse ****. It happened as it is happening today.

I’m not guessing, I know this for a fact.

 

Not in my lineage case.. It was a requirement, along with a sponsor and a working knowledge of the constitution and American way of life..

 

I'm thinking about how you misplaced thinking by calling it emoting. Whining is only whining when there is no basis for the claim. A 100% workforce that spans a singular and specific ethnicity in a demographic region of the country having a multiplicity of extant ethnic diversity is proof of discrimination through obvious circumstance. Circumstantial evidence is often times more compelling then so-called direct evidence. If you know the demographics of the area and you know that 100% the employees are of the exact same ethnicity as the owner, then you have good circumstantial evidence for an owner who engages in discriminatory hiring practices.

It is not rocket science. It does not need to be complicated any further. However, if one is dealing on the merits of the observation then one does need to accept the evidence as one finds it.

Ok, so Temporary Discriminatory Processes or Temporary Discriminatory Environments - just until one becomes assimilated is acceptable or even rational for the purpose for which it was intended? How it is rational or even logical to support the notion that a little discrimination, while calling it "support system" is the way in which we go about assimilating people in to our society? Don't you take on the Personal Responsibility to get your house in order before coming here and then maintain your house once you get here? Or, is it the responsibility for the country you seek to assimilate into to provide you with essentially a Head Start Program that guarantees your inoculation period to be uneventful and positively fruitful?

Really? How is that different than Affirmative Action for Immigrants! Did you just walk into that head first or what? How do we as a Nation get behind a "program" of Affirmative Action for Immigrants when we blasted African Americans (Black People) for daring to ask for such "support" after having come out of hundreds of years of Slavery and Economic Disenfranchisement? I just want to get this straight. Black folks can fight in every single war since the American Revolutionary War and get rail roaded afterwards with 100+ years of Jim Crow Laws that etched them out of mainstream economic production. Yet, someone from Pakistan, today, gets a "Support System" predicated (of all things) on the very kind of discriminatory conduct that Black People fought to dismantle to the benefit of all People of Color?

That is unbelievable to even fathom let alone explain. But, I'm all ears on this one!

Name a Brazilian, Guatemalan, Italian or individual from China who fought in the American Revolutionary War - the war that set this country apart from the Royal Crown and provided the foundation upon which all concepts of "Justice and Freedom For All" were measured and cut? Then name a Brazilian, Guatemalan, Italian or Chinese individual who fought the good fight for Civil Rights leading to inclusion of People of Color as opposed to their structural and legal discrimination in this country at all level of meaningful economic strata? While you are working on that, name the Brazilian, Guatemalan, Italian or Chinese individual who fought to tear down the Jim Crow laws that would still pertain to and include them to this very day, had they been allowed to stand?

Don't wait for the translation. The answer is: You can't. That is because these Acts of "support" for our country were engaged in by the courageous Men and Women who went by the name African American, or just plain ole Black during the time of both the American Revolutionary War (of Independence) and the American Civil War.

So, where did these Brazilian, Guatemalan and China towns come from? In all historical honesty, we cannot include Italian Immigrants in any other classification other than White Immigrants. How did these "town" concepts manage to thrive in America? Were these People of Color, too? If so, did all the Jim Crow Laws apply to them as well? Who brought those Jim Crow Laws tumbling down an who did that benefit - was it People of Color - was it the same people who then were able to develop "towns" after their own Ethnic name in America? Again, were they People of Color or not? Because, if they were People of Color, then Jim Crow applied directly to them - yet they never spent a day fighting the good fight for Civil Rights.

Seems like either somebody was never here during the period when all these Rights were being fought for and established, or somebody was here but was sitting their rear end on the sidelines while Black Folks were out doing the heavy lifting on these great and historical social concerns about Justice in this country.

Wonderful. Absolutely, wonderful that a Personal of Color can enjoy such "Freedom" in this country while never having fought for it. Again, mixing Italian Immigrants prior to the late 19th century in with the other groups you mentioned is not really fair. Italians were never considered People of Color and therefore, were treated as White in the United States of America. So, they never endured the same kind of hardships that People of Color endured and to include Italians in anything that Black People endured in this country is an abomination to common sense.

I worry a great deal because it is wrong. Some people have a Moral Compass and some don't. I get that, fully. I'm not one who frowns upon Moral Correctness because I'm a real Conservative. As such, I have a built-in Moral Compass that forces me to address these issues whenever they arise.

 

I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction. I enjoyed it.

 

My first assumption was family as well. But, then I kept seeing over the course of years in areas that were highly diverse ethnically. Then I began seeing it in lots of different places, not just the same old restaurant. Now, I'm seeing it expand like a wild fire and I can't help but wonder why. Of course, I know why and so do you - so do all of us. This is a form of Discrimination point blank and it is wrong. We can't tell the White guy in the South that he's wrong for not serving or hiring customers who are "Colored," while giving a pass to the Brown guy in California, for turning a profit in a community filled with ethnic diversity while having a workforce that looks 100% exactly like him with no deviation, whatsoever.

I could see this as a possible cultural trait that gets embedded in a business being run here in the United States. But, this gets back to my broader point that it is the personal responsibility of individuals immigrating here to get up to speed on the History of the country they wish to now call home. If I walked into your house, even if invited, and begun disrespecting the family portraits and all the things inside your house that held historic value or began simply breaking the rules of your household, you would have (even it I were invited) every reason to eject me from your home.

I'm saying that People need to respect History and those who pave the way for their being able to have a life in a country they did not sacrifice to build. That's not asking too much. In fact, it should never be something that needs to be asked for. The overall attitude that I encounter from too many Immigrants these days is one of isolation and sectarian myopia. I see it form a lot of different Ethnic Groups that come here these days and the trend is very disturbing to say the least.

This is the United States of America, folks. This is Home to People who worked hard to build it. This is Home to People who gave their lives to make it possible. This is Home to People who even though they were discriminated against and forced into Slavery at one point, still managed to embrace unity long enough not to destroy it, but to correct it on moral grounds and then proceed to help sustain it through war and conflict. This is the Home of a Great People. When you come here form abroad, do so with a tremendous amount of Humility, Decency, Honor and Respect for its traditions and those who actually made it Great. Do not take for granted that which has been laid out for you as though it means nothing, or was somehow a guarantee owed to you after you immigrated here. Start studying the real History of this country and you will fully understand what I am saying. I'm not being hard. I'm not being brutal. I'm not being difficult. I'm being real because our Nation's History is no joke and those who don't understand that History are only apt to disgrace those who made both the History and the Nation that History forged.

It is time for People in this country to turn to being Exceptional in their American Soul. If you can't do that then I question whether you belong here. It is time for Unity. Anything less is just unacceptable.

 

Yes I have been to Mexico, many many times. Considering that I only live about 150 miles from the Mexican border I have driven my personal vehicle through the poor parts of Nogales, Sonoyta, Tiajuana, Puerto Penasco and Juarez. Don't worry, I do get Mexican insurance before I cross the border.

So, parts of Mexico are exactly how the U.S. was about 100 years ago. Imagine the people living in Phoenix 100 years ago during the summertime. 90-degrees outside to them would feel like an artic blast. There are still may old homes in downtown Phoenix without A/C. Imagine building the transcontinental railroad before the invention of ice or refrigeration. Drinking hot water in the desert during July would suck, but hundreds of thousands Americans did it every single day without an ounce of self pity.

Some parts of Mexico are still pre electric and some parts are modern. My grandfather had to use an outhouse and every three months they had to dig a new hole, move the outhouse and fill the old hole with dirt. I've shopped plenty of times at the dirt mall in Puerto Penasco. Don't guilt yourself because your parents and grandparents, my parents and grandparents worked their ass' off to better this country.

 

Gee, do you think? When blacks or Latinos were oppressed they took civil action. So do something.

 

No LEGAL basis, which I explained.

 

Don't say that to a judge while he is drinking milk.

 

No one said that. Prove the case and it is unlawful. Glance around a restaurant and bitch on the internet about your feelings and it means nothing.

 

This is more of that emoting I was talking about. An immigrant moving to a geographic region or a specific neighborhood where he is aware of a significant community of those sharing his cultural and linguistic background - and finding a job with an ex-compatriot in that area is in no logical manner an affront to the struggles of people of African descent throughout this country's history.

 

Wrong. When the first significant waves of Italian immigrants came to the US, the WASPs most certainly did look down on the "garlic eaters," and they were most certainly not considered equals. That's one reason why so many packed into tenements in cities like NY where they invented 'Italian Food.'

 

So, your position is that no immigrant be allowed into this country unless they share an ethnic heritage with people who were represented in large numbers in the Revolutionary war? Remember that emoting I was talking about?

 

https://www.italianamericanleaguenyc.org/

https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/italians-who-fought-for-justice/

https://www.aafe.org/who-we-are/our-history

https://depts.washington.edu/civilr/Asian Americans.htm

Louisa Moreno

Abdias do Nascimento

etc, etc, etc

Ignorance isn't justified by anger.