Here is what we know regarding impeachment.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Lee Atwater, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1. Trump empowered Giuliani to employ the help of various members of the US diplomatic contingent to Ukraine, and some who were not part of that contingent, to put pressure on Ukraine to announce an investigation in to Joe Biden. A campaign that began in the spring of 2019. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50492438
    2. Leverage was used, at Trump's direction, as a means to get Ukraine to acquiesce to Trump's requests in the form of the withholding of military aid authorized by Congress.
    "Clear direction from POTUS to continue hold."
    https://www.justsecurity.org/67863/...ts-reveal-extent-of-pentagons-legal-concerns/
    3. Resulting from the WB complaint, a summary of the transcript of the Zelensky call was released revealing Trump speaking to Zelensky about the investigations he wanted Ukraine to announce. A transcript WH officials tried to hide from other members of the government and the public by placing it in a code level secret server typically used for keeping national security matters secret. https://apnews.com/817c0c285bc9485d88608635e0fef3e3
    4. Trump and Sondland were overheard discussing the efforts to get Ukraine to announce an investigation in to Biden.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/21/imp...ow-he-overheard-trump-call-with-sondland.html
    5. Officials in the admin and the Pentagon expressed concern the hold was illegal.
    https://publicintegrity.org/nationa...rried-ukraine-aid-halt-violated-spending-law/
    A GAO analysis of the laws pertaining to the hold found it was, in their opinion, illegal.
    6. Ukrainian officials asked about the aid on the day Trump called Zelensky when he said, "I need you to do us a favor though," prior to asking Ukraine to investigate Biden (and the server).
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/ukr...ump-zelenskiy-call-impeachment-testimony.html
    7. Part time, acting Chief-of-Staff Mick Mulvaney publicly acknowledged the quid pro quo.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/poli...d-pro-quo-donald-trump-ukraine-aid/index.html
    So did EU ambassador Sondland.
    Sondland acknowledges Ukraine quid pro quo, implicates Trump, Pence, Pompeo and others
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...741e3c-0b92-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html
    8. US Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch was relieved of her post by Trump as a result of a smear campaign launched against her by Giuliani because she posed on obstacle to carrying out the scheme to extort Ukraine. https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/15/trump-yovanovitch-impeachment-070988
    Lev Parnas recently stated her removal was directed as a payoff to get a Ukrainian official to produce dirt on Biden. https://slate.com/news-and-politics...risma-biden-dirt-fire-ukraine-ambassador.html
    9. All of the 17 witnesses who testified during the House inquiry corroborate 1-8.
    10. If any of the witnesses or documentary evidence Trump has blocked as part of his obstruction of the investigation can offer a refutation of the evidence above it is his prerogative to present it.
    11. The solicitation of help in a US election from a foreign person or government is illegal.
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...s-illegality-of-soliciting-campaign-help-from

    The evidence Trump is guilty of the charges contained in the AoI is compelling. To date, the only defense he has offered is, "I did nothing wrong." Clearly that assertion is a lie, even if you believe he didn't break the law. Compromising national security by delaying the dispersal of military aid to an ally under siege from Russia is no small matter. Using the office of the President for personal, political gain is no small matter. Obstructing a congressional investigation is no small matter. Lying to the American public is no small matter (though it has become routine during the error....sorry......era of Trumpery).
     
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  2. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    OP reads like an episode of Ancient Aliens.
     
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  3. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, OP reads like that guy on Ancient Aliens with the wild hairdo. It conflates opinions and speculation with "facts" ("what we know"... ROFLMAO), presents only one side in a partisan way, is not an invitation to any reasonable discussion and none will result. Why bother other than to poke fun and keep it up top for awhile so others can see the inanity on display?
     
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  4. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    2 US officials were so disgusted Trump withheld military aid from Ukraine that they resigned
    https://www.businessinsider.com/2-o...sgust-over-trump-freezing-ukraine-aid-2019-11

    The official, Mark Sandy, testified to the House Intelligence Committee behind closed doors on November 16. His testimony was publicly released Tuesday.

    Both of the officials who left OMB were unnamed, but Sandy said one worked in the agency's legal office.

    Sandy was asked whether the official who worked in the legal office left "at least in part because of their concerns or frustrations about the hold on Ukraine security assistance."

    He replied: "Yes, in terms of that process, in part." Sandy later added: "I never want to attribute that as the, you know, sole purpose for an individual's actions, but I am aware of their frustrations in that area, yes."
     
  5. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Those are just the facts that we know unequivocally. In the list you post, point 3 is enough to prove that Trump has abused power. The so-called "transcript" proves that Trump is guilty. The rest is just corroborating and qualifying evidence.

    Trump supporters confuse "sufficient evidence" with "all the evidence". We have had sufficient evidence to prove that Trump is guilty of abuse of power for a while. We don't have "all the evidence" because Trump holds a powerful position and is able of blocking it. We may never have "all the evidence". But we certainly have more than sufficient evidence to remove him from power.

    What we may be lacking is a Republican Congress that is willing to put their political interests behind their patriotism. And I doubt we will ever have it. But the American people are not as stupid as Trump loyalists require them to be in order to make them believe that Trump is innocent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  6. nra37922

    nra37922 Well-Known Member

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    Oh you President Trump haters. If I post ANYTHING else one of you will b!tch to a mod...
     
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  7. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For all those trumpians that can't quite grasp the mountain range of evidence against their Dear Leader and the dearth on any exculpatory evidence, here is a very convenient site to track all activities, reports, testimony, documentary evidence, legal proceedings, public statements, etc.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Keep_Track/

    And if you need a chuckle you should check out r/trumpcriticizestrump
     
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  8. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The evidence is overwhelming...........which is why Trumpette's say none exists.............denial of reality is all they have left............it's all they've ever had.
     
  9. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Lock him up!!!
     
  10. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Those are spun facts...

    If the hold was illegal Trump needs to be sued in the DC court of appeals to resolve the issue. It is not impeachable..

    Oh wait it was resolved... Ukraine got the aid.

    The only thing impeachable in all of this was if Trump was seeking an investigation into Biden because he wanted dirt to use against him during the 2020 election or something else of value to him personally.

    Apparently Democrats have forgotten reading comprehension.
    The phone call makes it crystal clear.
    Trump asked Zaleski to do "us" a favor. The context makes it clear that the us is the American people.

    It's clear Trump believed Ukraine influenced the 2016 election and wanted to get to the bottom of it.
    This was not about dirt for 2020 or anything of personal value to Trump.

    At least the Democrats did not prove that point with the testimony in the house.

    House Democrats grabbed onto the narrative they wanted and pushed it. And the lying, yes lying media was all to happy to take their leaks and spin them all in an effort to ensure Americans are misinformed.
     
  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's not Congress' job to determine if it was illegal. Their job is to determine if it was abuse of power.

    Obviously it was also illegal, but that's not the role of Congress. Congress is doing it's job. So far.... Who knows if Republicans in the Senate will keep doing it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  12. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    In terms of the withholding of aid, it is not impeachable, the law says right in it that to resolve issues the recourse is only through the DC court of appeals.

    It had absolutely nothing to do with Congress. That and what makes it illegal is not notifying congress,and why.
    Impeachment is improper for withholding the funds.
     
  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    He is not being impeached for withholding the aid. He is being impeached for abuse of power by soliciting the aid of a foreign government by carrying out a scheme that included withholding the aid and other means, for personal political gain, in a way that compromised the security and integrity of the United States of America.

    And for Obstruction of Congress.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  14. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Well-Known Member

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    Did the tic tock clock get a fresh battery?
     
  15. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Obstruction of congress isn't a thing in this case, executive privilege and congress withdrawal of subpoenas is.

    Also the house testimony gave no testimony that asking for the Ukrainians help was morivated by self interest. The call is clear he did it for Americas interest.
     
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  16. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Well-Known Member

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    But, but...he did something!!
     
  17. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Evidence? Sorry, but inauguration still isn't a crime, and that's the only thing Trump has proven to have done wrong so far...
     
  18. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    So as I thought you are impeaching on the basis of assumptions not facts thanks.
     
  19. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    For the hundredth time, there is no such thing as executive privilege in cases of Impeachment.

    Not only did they in fact give testimony to that. The so-called "transcript" also gives testimony to that.

    Asking the Ukrainians to help him win the elections is an impeachable act. And it's also illegal, BTW.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  20. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Yeah, everybody does something every day.
     
  21. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    He did not ask for help with the election.. that is total spin.
     
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  22. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Banned

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    Trump's defenders argue that Trump did nothing wrong. What Trump did was inappropriate, but what he did was not a crime, not an impeachable offense. That is wrong on several accounts.

    It is a violation of federal law for a Presidential campaign to request a benefit from a foreign government. Trump wanted the Ukrainian government to investigate the 2016 Presidential election and his chief rival, Joe Biden.

    Trump's chief of staff confirmed that the military aid approved by Congress was withheld as incentive. Bribery is one of the impeachable offenses in our Constitution, confirming abuse of power.

    However, on the face of it, forced by Trump's guilt, his defenders are in an awkward position. They are compelled to say that it is okay for a President to invite foreign interference in our Presidential election for his political benefit and use bribery of a foreign leader as an incentive to get what he wants.

    The Government Accountability Office, said the White House’s Office of Management and Budget violated the law when it withheld nearly $400 million this past summer for “a policy reason,” even though the funds had been allocated by Congress.

    Unfortunately, because they are covering for a guilty President, McConnell and the Republican majority may not allow that evidence.

    According to a recent survey, 51% of Americans want Trump convicted and removed from office. That is the highest yet. 69% want witnesses called, including 48% of Republicans.

    McConnell and Trump Republicans in the Senate should not lose sight of the fact that they do not have the final word on Trump's removal from office. The American people do.
     
  23. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    “President Trump maintains that the Senate cannot remove him even if the House proves every claim in the Articles of impeachment. That is a chilling assertion. It is also dead wrong,” the impeachment managers wrote. “The Framers deliberately drafted a Constitution that allows the Senate to remove Presidents who, like President Trump, abuse their power to cheat in elections, betray our national security, and ignore checks and balances. That President Trump believes otherwise, and insists he is free to engage in such conduct again, only highlights the continuing threat he poses to the Nation if allowed to remain in office.”
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/house-democrats-response-trump-senate-summons

    This should scare the shyte out of every American. Trump is claiming he won't go even if he is convicted. He is inching towards making himself a self appointed ruler, not an elected prez.
     
  24. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    So now Trumpers are admitting guilt and claiming it doesn’t matter
     
  25. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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