Right to repair.

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Polydectes, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    building a trust, not compete agreements.
    No. If you're better than everybody else you don't need a monopoly.
    no I'm looking for capitalism. I want a free market for repair services.

    You are arguing against a free market for a repair services.
     
  2. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You don’t like copywriter laws, I bet. Are you Chinese? I hear they can’t quite understand intellectual property rights either. But I bet your a supporter of open source coding, aren’t you?
     
  3. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    This is kind of a stupid argument. You can't not buy something after you've bought it. And when they don't tell you the truth when you buy something about they're crooked little service scam then that is underhanded business practice.

    I would consider it fraud.

    When it comes down to it I'm okay with him putting these proprietary gateway booby traps on the product. If they had to be honest about it they would go out of business or they would have to change.

    So once again I am pro free market you are anti free market.
     
  4. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    this has nothing to do with intellectual property.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  5. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Read the contract. If it says right to use, but access to code a violation of license, than you own the useage, that’s it. Of course, you could jail break it and invalidate the warranty.

    I just don’t get your gripe. Based on your observations there is a market need for open source coding, but no profitable business will do it because that can’t make a profit. Well no sht, Sherlock. Duh? And your solution is to get the government’s gun and force it on the business. That’s not going to work.
     
  6. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If I invented a nuclear powered car, I’d make damn sure that only my qualified minds would work on it. I’d do everything with in my rational power to keep out the fly-by-nighters, the self-appointed neighborhood geniuses, and the well meaning craftsmen, no better how good.

    It’s my creation, and the only thing I’m selling is the right to use, the rest is mine, including the software to make it run properly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  7. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    This isn't about warranty. If a manufacturer wants to set stipulations on warrenty I have no issue with that
    I know. That's why you keep bringing up nonsense.

    I have offered to explain it to you but you don't seem receptive. So here we are, you stupidly hurling poorly thought out arguments and me telling you that's not what this is about.

    I understand it's complex and people who don't work in a repair and maintenance field don't understand.

    If you don't wish to understand I don't wish to waste my time explaining to you.
     
  8. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    BS. Your pissed off because John Deere makes tractors you aren’t allowed to repair because of a service contract the buyers have to buy, which they enforce using closed coding—You can’t get into their software. Or to state it bluntly—-“Johnny is being selfish and won’t share his stuff with me. That’s wrong, Mommy. Make him.”
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  9. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    and you should tell people that upon buying your car.
    Than you should be required to tell people they are not really buying a car.

    Otherwise it's fraud.
     
  10. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So you still don't understand.

    I'm glad I didn't waste my time explaining. However if you wish to understand you can ask me to explain. I'll happily do so.
     
  11. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I suspect it would be brought up in the service contract, would it not?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  12. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,805
    Likes Received:
    1,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh, enlighten me, Ben Knobi. What is it specifically that John Deere is doing that makes you want to desecrate the free market by bringing the government’s gun to the deal?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  13. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Service contract? No I don't care about that. You have the right to opt in or not.
    the reason why you would use your services is because your service center sucks. Or you don't want people repairing it so you can export them into replacing it prematurely.

    If you provided the best service you wouldn't need these underhanded tactics.

    That is how Apple became the company it is today.
     
  14. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not going to be trapped in a loaded question you'll have to ask in a way that it's not loaded question otherwise I don't think you genuinely want to know.
     
  15. Labouroflove

    Labouroflove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    12,838
    Likes Received:
    6,852
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You and I are on the same page, mostly. Certainly on licensing, caveat emptor, and civil suit remedy.

    On this issue, I see a not so subtle change in the definition of purchase, sale, ownership, property rights. The idea that a manufacturer maintains some control of repairs, maintenance etc.,isn't new. It's usually through warranty, quality and good business practices. What is new, and becoming ubiquitous, is a manufacturers ability to compel the control of maintenance, repair and replacement. It's being done through complex encrypted code in attached computers that control the operation of the product. This isn't a bad thing in complex and potentially dangerous machinery, or at least the aspects that require close tolerance and correction.

    Now, the problem I see is that computers have become ubiquitous in products. A computer controls my washer and dryer, my dishwasher, my refrigerator, my oven, my home security system, my microwave, my home environmental systems. That's just one's home, if we list business products, aircraft, recreational vehicles....... Damn near everything that is electrically powered or has components that are electrically actuated now has a computer that controls some function. Code can and is written that either requires manufacturer input to repair and maintain or is written in such a way that unneeded complexity and encryption compels manufacturer involvement.

    See the issue? If VW will fudge the code to beat the government, the same ability will be used to "fault" a device to generate revenue.

    I think there's room here for legislating what and how a manufacture than tether themselves to a product it "sells". These tethers sound more like maintaining ownership.

    Cheers
     
  16. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    17,377
    Likes Received:
    9,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I’m not a programmer or a technician, but I would say it would be nearly impossible to design a “dumb” diesel engine that was efficient enough fuel and power wise to be practical and still meet emission standards.
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One instance we're actually dealt with this was with an old Chevy that I had. I wanted to replace the factory radio, so I did. And I kept the old one.

    A friend of mine who didn't really have the money to put in a new radio and I offered to install it for her for free. It was an easy enough job. It was a similar year model Chevy, so pull the screws and plug it in.

    So I installed it. The screen said that it was locked. So I tried to figure out how to unlock it. And it turns out that I had to go to GM and pay them $150 to unlock it. It was my radio I can prove it because the serial numbers matched my truck. They just wanted it thrown away so they could sell you a new one.

    I wasn't against paying them to unlock it. 15-20 dollars, it would have been a trifle for them to do it. But they wanted the price for a new radio. To touch some keys. It's not a skill.
     
    Labouroflove likes this.
  18. Labouroflove

    Labouroflove Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    12,838
    Likes Received:
    6,852
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "software you don't own"

    Sounds like the auto sale is part sale and part license. All good if the software can be stripped from the machine and replaced with another's code without additional cost other than replacing the software.

    That's not the case though is it?

    The product won't function without the software and it's not sold with the product. Doesn't sound like the definition of ownership.
     
    ArchStanton and Polydectes like this.
  19. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah I don't think he understands. He will want it comes time to repair something he bought that's under this service scam.

    Yeah that thing you night for 2000 dollars 6 months ago yeah you need a repair and it's going to cost 1200 to repair.

    No you can't take it anywhere else because they can't repair it. They don't have the access code.

    When he finds out the repair it's just a series of maneuvers anybody can do and it's not a skill them he'll feel really ripped off. Because he was.
     
    Labouroflove likes this.
  20. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    17,377
    Likes Received:
    9,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting thread. So interesting I picked the brain of my service manager at the dealership I do farm equipment business with.

    I was informed one of the main reasons they will not allow access to software is liability, especially in the area of emissions control. If a mechanic alters the emissions enough to be out of EPA regs, the manufacturer and/or dealer is liable for the fines etc.

    We didn’t get into liability of guidance system malfunction but that could be just as costly from a liability standpoint.

    It was admitted limiting competition and protection of intellectual property was a factor as well.

    As far as timely repairs the dealership I use is very good. Usually a tech is available in under 2 hours. I’m happy with that. But because there is no competition it is pricey.

    Your link discussed the appeal of older equipment. Personally, emissions controls are the most annoying tech feature on newer equipment. Most engines now require DEF and also have particulate filters that run regeneration cycles periodically. Re gen cycles are enough to cause temporary insanity. There is no warning or countdown to the process, and it begins automatically while the equipment is in operation. Once initiated the engine cannot be shut off. If it is, the engine may require a technician facilitated manual regeneration taking up to six hours.

    Invariably, the regeneration cycle will start just when you are finished feeding cattle or it’s 10:30 pm and the harvest crew all wants to quit and go home. So, you either keep picking corn for an hour or send everyone home and sit there waiting for an hour for the cycle to complete.

    So, avoidance of emissions controls is one huge reason used equipment is in demand. The 4440 model John Deere mentioned in your linked article is possibly one of the best tractors ever built. It’s bare bones, no tech, and very reliable. I use one to run my feed wagon all winter/spring and it is the least likely of all my equipment to cause trouble in cold weather. There is no new tractor that would be as reliable.

    On the other hand, for planting, cultivation, and harvesting, I would never want to go back to low tech. There simply isn’t a labor supply to make it work anymore. GPS driven auto steer technology is invaluable from an efficiency and productivity standpoint.

    In short I guess I see a market going forward for both low tech and hi tech, but as I alluded to in post #191, new low tech is likely never going to be an option because of emissions regulations.

    @Polydectes check your pm box in a bit...:)
     
  21. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    3,043
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have to disagree. I once worked for a garage who's specialty was wallet flushing. Despite their incompetence and rip offs there was always a line of cars waiting to be repaired. Why?, because they were cheap.
     
  22. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    3,043
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    One of the requirements to getting a G2 license was that you were ASE certified.
     
  23. NMNeil

    NMNeil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    3,043
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course there's fraud in auto repair.
    If a mechanic is on flat rate and he flags 80 hours in a 40 hour work week, that's fraud.
     
  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,276
    Likes Received:
    18,037
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    this isn't about being able to monkey with software. This is about being able to repair it without having to deal with software gateways.

    The software I'm talking about is put there just to cause problems. It's basically legal Ransom Ware.
     
    Labouroflove and ArchStanton like this.
  25. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    17,377
    Likes Received:
    9,812
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes. I’ve given reasons that Ransom software is there.
     

Share This Page