Labour in the UK lost the working class, but gained the woke.

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Boosewell, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. Boosewell

    Boosewell Active Member

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    Plus he is into organic gardening.

    Actually, I am into organic gardening and I can tell you that while you might think they are harmless, organic gardeners never really grow up and their politics don't extend much beyond storming the Winter Palace.
     
  2. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    I like the UK's answer for farmers.
     
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  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    A statement that shows the extent of your ideological blindness.

    UN res 181 and 242 (remember them) were the correct decisions in international law, from the point of view of a just adjudication between two opposing cultural worldviews. Nothing to do with "hating Jews".

    Of course your worldview rejects international law in favour of absolute national sovereignty, which is why the UNSC (with the veto power forced onto it) is unable to implement international law, so we humans are back to our culture of death, killing our own children .....so that one side can continuue to believe Jehovah is God, and the other that Allah is God (and the 'Christians' join the fray with their fiction that Christ is God, they wouldn't know Christ if they fell over him).

    Corbyn, a man of justice, and an internationalist, sees all this.

    As for the "LW Pinko" slur (in your eyes), Corbyn actually wants to eradicate poverty amongst his countrymen. The problem was the electorate didn't believe he could do it - which is the same problem faced by all Left Wing parties today.

    That's why the electorate has given up on politics in general, and you might as well elect a buffoon like Johnson.

    At least Corbyn's not a Comfortable Conservative like Trump who delighted in mocking Thunberg for her views on AGW* at Davos - a serious topic*.
    Trump said "the world never had it so good".....I feel confident in saying he too is ideologically blind, since there are sufficient resources in the world to eradicate poverty and disadvantage.
    (yet Trump feels the need for a wall to keep out the refugees wanting to escape from this wonderful Conservative world (eg in Guatemala and Honduras)....

    * regardless of whether AGW/CO2 is real, we have the technology to usher in the "Third Industrial Revolution" based on global free green energy (after the infrastructure and recycling industry is built). See Jeremy Rifkin's new book " The Green New Deal".

    AOC has knowledge of MMT, that's why she can take a policy of guaranteed above poverty participation in the economy, to the electorate.

    Can she and Bernie achieve a miracle in November? Certainly I'm seeing some desperation (from the nature of their attacks) appearing among the likes of Fox News followers...
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  4. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Labor will be back. It's just a matter of time for the Brits to see that the "move out" was a colossal mistake economy-wise. (With which party will they make a political come-back is a very good question.)

    My Brit-friends here in France are lamenting that fact right now. Though many are on the Right politics-wise, they did not vote for .... uh, what's-his-name?

    And the long-term Brits living/working here are flocking to obtain French citizenship. (For their kids, it's dead-simple because they were born here in France.)

    I am deeply surprised that a "third major party" did not make a better showing. Frankly, there is no "third major party" anymore given the voting pattern of this last election (the Scots being on their own):
    PS: I look forward with Great Anticipation for the Scots to dump the Pound-sterling and adopt the Euro. (Too good to be true?)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  5. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't wish the Euro on my worst enemy. Scotland will not leave as they have no mandate and they have no power to force an independence vote.
     
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    More blindness.

    You simply do not see the advantage of Scotland being part of a larger economic entity. (Which entity has had also an amazingly positive affect on lifestyle by means of common agreements in areas largely beyond "economics".)

    History Lesson: Retrograding an economy is also a part of human nature. Unfortunately for those who do so. The US is a damn fine example of that lesson.

    Mind-boggling Blindness is as MbB does ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  7. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find there is more advantage to Scotland being in the UK than in the EU. Could you name some of these amazingly positive lifestyle improvements that come with EU membership please?

    Have you followed Italy, Spain, Greece or Ireland since they joined the Euro?
     
  8. Boosewell

    Boosewell Active Member

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    God forbid that anyone should accuse me of being cynical Rhetoric, but my impression was that the farmer would rather grow trees on a government subsidy than raise sheep at a loss. And 600,000 trees on 300 acres makes for some very small trees.
    Arbeit macht frei
     
  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For starters, about 20% of total exports that go to the EU will have an import barrier. Starting with oil.

    The import tariffs will make all UK products more expensive, and they aint that cheap as it is.

    Yes, I have. I live in France. All the countries mentioned have had better overall growth from lower export-taxation - typically amongst themselves. It created jobs and that was all that was necessary to spark Consumption.

    The Great Recession was the doing of the Bush and his Replicant Crowd, so Europe was just one of many that suffered as international Demand for goods and services diminished considerably ...
     
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    That's all you got to counter my expose of the rottenness at the base of your world view?

    The slogan "Arbeit macht frei" was placed at the entrances to a number of Nazi concentration camps. (Wikipedia}

    Originally the phrase indicated the value of work to the individual. In fact, it is your rotten economics that condemns people to unemployment, with various fictions such as NAIRU and the Philip's curve.

    Btw, our 'Christian' civilisation is based, inter alia, on certain OT scripture that needs to be proscribed and expunged from the Bible. (The prophets Moses, Joshua, and Samuel all subscribing to the filth that 'God' (Jehovah) authorised genocide).

    It's a pity Marcion, one of the early compilers of the evolving NT who rejected the OT entirely for these reasons*, was eventually deemed heretical by the authorities.

    * the Prince of Peace (Christ) being incompatible with the Man of War (Jehovah) in Marcion's estimation (correct, obviously).
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Are you aware of the work of Prof. Bill Mitchell, one of the original developers of MMT?
    [google: Bill Mitchell blog ]

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?cat=18

    Under 'categories' on RHS, scroll down to 'Eurozone'

    He certainly agrees with your thoughts on this matter, but probably for different reasons...

    Meanwhile our friend Lafayette thinks life in the EU is much better than the US; maybe there is less inequality in the EU, but the official unemployment rates in the EU are nothing to be proud of...eg, 6.3% in 2019. You can safely double that figure to get closer to the real picture, given you are considered employed if you work more than 1 hour per week...
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  12. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    The 'real Left' in Britain, represented by Corbyn, was defeated by the Right, because no-one believed Corbyn could implement his 'pro-people' policies.

    Reason: since everyone believes governments must aim for balanced budgets, the issue of tax always comes up...so even Corbyn when interviewed on the BBC could not give a simple answer to "how will you pay for it".

    Meanwhile, while the contest between the mainstream Left, eg Biden, versus the 'real Left' eg Sanders, in the US is yet to be settled, some very interesting trends seem to be emerging.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/01/2020-elite-backlash-bernie-sanders-rich-people

    2020 Will See an Elite Crack-Up of Epic Proportions

    If the establishment got this nervous about Donald Trump in 2016, then imagine how much they'll meltdown with the rise of democratic-socialist Bernie Sanders in 2020.

    Utterly deranged as it all was, the elite freak-out of 2016 will almost certainly be eclipsed or exceeded in the months ahead; the coming meltdown is liable to be far uglier than even 2008 ever managed to be.

    The simple and immediate reason for this is that a second Sanders candidacy now seriously threatens to succeed where the first one failed. Ahead of the Iowa caucuses next week, the socialist senator from Vermont suddenly seems poised to do well — quite possibly securing the first in a slew of victories that could plausibly carry him all the way to the Democratic nomination. Failing to learn anything from 2016, America’s complacent liberal establishment plainly believed it had neutralized the populist threat until a few weeks ago and, having served up a vast but largely hapless field of candidates to run against Sanders, now finds itself with a severe case of political vertigo and unsure of what to do that it hasn’t already tried before.

    Predictably, the usual cadre of spin doctors, elite media figures, and political operatives paid to masquerade as “analysts” on network TV has already started dusting off many of their favorite lines from 2016 — from tired complaints about how Sanders supporters behave online to horseshoe-theory comparisons with Donald Trump that often defy belief in their sheer stupidity.

    -------
    One reason Bernie might succeed against Trump - if he can first overcome the Democrat Party Machine - while Corbyn failed against Johnson, is that a majority of Americans would probably support a financial transaction tax on Wall Street (a Sanders' policy) given the egregious inequality in the US.

    Meanwhile AOC understands MMT and hence the practicality of a Job Guarantee, which will be a boon to the US under a Sanders' presidency.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  13. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    SNP are annoying the Tory Party by vowing / ordering that the EU flag still flies high over Scottish government buildings
    https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/brexit-day-scottish-parliament-flag-flying-1378010 - that's what kind of country this is now; and thanks to Jeremy Corbyn, Labour's a footnote when it's not the Mayor; why not make the next PM Sadiq Khan, then I'd vote Labour again, but Labour; It wasn't Britain's skepticism about the ultra left's ability to do it, it was a fear that they would actually do it, which defeated them in the 2019 election and handed a majority to the Tories and even my alligence, f' Jeremy Corbyn right, I'm a not a political man turned card carrying Tory because of Corbynism messing with my life vowing to mess it up even more in horrid manifestos threatening to destroy my dreams; a bit a extreme, but so is life if you're a passionate person like me, so I couldn't be happier being a Tory at the moment, but it was fear that gave Boris Johnson.
    Serious questions of character in Jeremy Corbyn made for a certain distrust for him and his cronies with the electorate; They also didn't deliver a stance on a key political issue *Brexit; and the Tories had the only answer that wasn't revoke UK's triggering of Article 50 stopping Brexit by the fringe party The Lib Dems.

    Tories: Get Brexit Done
    Labour: ???
    The Lib Dems: Revoke Article 50/Stop Brexit

    and the The Lib Dems NEVER win power, ever. Not since 1910 or something and even that f' up so hard they've never had a Prime Minister since!..

    Boris Johnson...

    I remember him when he was mayor, big bombastic glory hog.
    To me, this feels like a sequel. Boris Johnson II: This Time It's National (2019)
    Still the same guy, but now he's the Prime Minister...

    I wanna see him do publicity stunts for the country when seeking a new trade deal, I cannot wait.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Some Scots want out of Britain, some Catalonians want out of Spain.....they are all confused..

    Why? What are Khan's policies? "Anti-socialist", I suppose...

    "Ultra Left"? ….you mean like Bernie Sanders, who in the well-known socialist country of the USA is actually becoming an electoral force, far from being feared - except by the comfortable establishment?

    No, you are wrong in your analysis (not surprising given your LW Pinko rhetoric about Corbyn.

    ..not only extreme, but ideologically blind as well....

    Explain: exactly how is Corbyn, (or Sanders in the US) " messing with my life vowing to mess it up even more in horrid manifestos threatening to destroy my dreams"?

    You think he is going to take your money, or your freedom from you?

    By raising some taxes on the wealthy? These are the reasons you are afraid?

    What if I tell you the government can implement an above poverty Job Guarantee for all of working age, without raising taxes on you...will you still be afraid?

    yes, fear that you would pay more tax...

    The Right draw all the wrong conclusions, based on their individualist, nationalistic, and cultural supremacist world views.

    eg Alexander Downer tweets: "Why do the Left hate Israel" and the dumb Right says: Amen.

    whereas UN 181 and 242, accepted by the internationalist Left, were about a just settlement between two opposing views. (It will be interesting to see if, after 70 years of war, the Palestinians have finally become exhausted enough to accept Trump's pro-Israel " Deal of the Century").

    I agree Corbyn - and Labour - was wobbly over Brexit (for me a secondary issue. I like international organisations and agreements, apart from the problems associated with the single currency (Euro) being adopted by independent nations; see my post above to James Knapp).

    I agree he is likely to be amusing - everyone has a strong point....

    For my part, I'd love to see the dynamics of a meeting between President Sanders and PM Johnson.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    List if companies leaving the UK (from here):
    Nissan
    Sony
    Panasonic
    Airbus
    Jaguar Land Rover
    P&O
    JPMorgan
    Dyson

    “We will continue to invest in the UK, in Malmesbury, in Bristol and London.”
    Ford
    Honda

    From the New York Times here:
    As an example that will happen over and over again:
    The Brits were damn fools to "up&run". The British Empire is over and done with, boyz-'n-girlz ...



     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  16. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    The title of the piece you linked has the word 'could'.
     
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK, so it's "could". Not would. Not should. But still not "good".

    The point, I find, is that those companies I listed are all international. That is, they sell one helluva-lotta product into the EU. Will they be willing to assume the already higher-production cost along with a import duty in the EU-market. Any company can open up production in Poland or Romania (see here) for about 7 or 10 euros/hour against 27 for the UK.

    That temptation has proven too great for a good many countries - especially vis-a-vis Germany at 35€ per hour. So what do they do, these countries?

    This New Information Age is extremely important to getting our kids well-paying jobs, because developed-country "Industries" just wont hack a damn-good salary as they did once-upon-a-time. Children today need desperately a post-secondary education that prepares them for Service-Industry jobs - one that is free, gratis or almost for nothing - to make a decent living ...
     
  18. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    When you drive by the cobwebs & dust plant where you used to work you just stay pissed off all the time. If you were born poor and had to work to get money you can only make them pay when you vote.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  19. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    Bernies Sanders is an old fart too old to be POTUS imo, and what's wrong with centre right @a better world and tax avoidance isn't tax evasion! That's what dreams Corbyn and his red army Momentum thugs were vowing to close.
    Brexit was the issue that Labour didn't have an opinion on and what they had an opinion on was an unfavourable idea rooted in protectionism and state control.
    Just look at Venezuela; even the Labour leader supported Maduro who annexed foreign owned businesses in Venezuela making for a very hostile business environment in Venezuela.
    Trump's impeachment is not an issue here in the UK looking to leave the EU, and at the time, Brexit was the main issue, Bernie Sanders will never be an issue here and I'd hate for that old fart to be POTUS.
    Can't his cause not find somebody a little younger maybe?
    He and Biden are too old imo and why aren't Ukraine investigating the Bidens?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  20. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    'Centre Right' has decimated services in Britain;

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/24/world/europe/britain-austerity-may-budget.html

    "The New York Times has been reporting for the last year on how nearly a decade of government austerity has refashioned British society, slashing away at budgets for policing, housing and welfare".

    So I was right all along, the issue is fear of tax... and the fact that most people (like you) still think good social programs represent a threat to their own wealth...

    You should be hearing about MMT soon; certainly the likes of Christine Lagarde and Mario Draghi are taking notice.

    Venezuela's main source of income (oil exports) collapsed when the price of oil fell. The issue there is lack of international arrangements to deal with such events that have consequences for entire nations.

    And Brexit...who cares (apart from the policy options open to a currency issuing sovereign government - see MMT; and some jingoistic nationalists dreaming of the glory days of empire)

    Pass...except the austerity programs noted above are very much an issue for the UK, as are the increasing inequality and entrenched poverty in the US.

    https://4thworldmovement.org/overco...Grqb1dMntuD-gzVjjhy8Tkwl2Iuvl-RkaAnG3EALw_wcB

    1 in 6 Americans lives below the Poverty Line.

    Poverty isn’t $24,300 a year for a family of four. Poverty isn’t 14.5% of Americans. Poverty is the constant stress of not having enough to eat, of not knowing where you’re going to sleep tonight, of knowing you are one emergency away from sleeping on the streets.

    Lots of interesting people (especially women) on board, like AOC and Tulsi Gabbard...and Stephanie Kelton.

    More side shows.... Trump's guilty of a quid pro quo, obviously, but if he can't be defeated at the ballot box, the Dems should pack up and go home. But the problem is - the Dems are your establishment "centre Right" mob that young Americans are rejecting en masse.

    The question is will they come out and vote? (It's possible the Brexit vote won because young people - mostly Europhiles - didn't bother to vote).
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  21. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    You didn't understand Brexit was a key issue in UK's 2019 election and you didn't realise Jeremy Corbyn's Momentum were like the Nazi Party.
    How many Jewish hate crimes has Jeremy Corbyn been investigated in hiding from the police.


    Quite frankly, you were never correct.

    Bernie Sanders will never become POTUS, he's too old, like Biden.
     
  22. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I know Brexit was a key issue for the British, and I recognise Labour was wobbly on Brexit; it's just I'm not interested (since unlike you, I like international arrangements).

    I note the way you added this pure ideological nonsense onto a point of fact (ie the importance of the Brexit vote in the recent election...though the referendum itself - which engaged 60% of the population? - showed a 48-52 split.)

    I don't know (I'll google it). I do know the Right are cultural supremacists, and when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the Right ignore UN resolutions...in line with the "Chosen People" nonsense of OT mythology.

    Your ideological blindness prevents you from seeing tax is always the issue: It's the very basis of our instinctive self interest - which Conservatives refuse to acknowledge.
    eg,
    "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money".....but she forgot to add: "the problem with capitalism is you eventually run out of consumers with money".

    (see... we can all play ideological words games)

    I frankly don't know if I would choose Biden over Trump; whereas Bernie could endorse and step aside for AOC, for example, if necessary, (but he looks vigorous enough for the role, to me).
     
  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    The artist Mear One episode (2014) appears to be the beginning of non-sensical anti-Semitic slurs against Corbyn.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_for_Humanity

    Here are the artist's words (after a complaint from a Jewish official)

    "I came to paint a mural that depicted the elite banker cartel known as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgans, the ruling class elite few, the Wizards of Oz. They would be playing a board game of monopoly on the backs of the working class. The symbol of the Free Mason [sic] Pyramid rises behind this group and behind that is a polluted world of coal burning and nuclear reactors. I was creating this piece to inspire critical thought and spark conversation. A group of conservatives do not like my mural and are playing a race card with me. My mural is about class and privilege. The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos. For some reason they are saying I am anti-semitic. This I am most definitely not... What I am against is class."[3]

    When Jeremy Corbyn received via Facebook an image of the mural with a message from Mear One that it was to be effaced the following day and appealing to freedom of expression, he asked "Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera's* [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin."[4][5]

    His response was queried by The Jewish Chronicle in November 2015;[5] and in March 2018, Luciana Berger demanded an explanation for his response. Corbyn replied, "I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic."[6]

    * should be Rivera.

    We learn that Rivera was an atheist, a communist, and a Jew, who painted Lenin into a mural, which upset Rockerfeller who had commisioned the work.

    Now, as with One's mural, I can see nothing that is 'antisemtic' in Rivera's work, so I can't for the life of me even see why Corbyn felt he had to apologise for anything (in 2017….feel free to point out how Rivera's mural was antisemtic (it was certainly anti capitalist, another thing altogether). ie what was Luciana Berger demanding Corbyn apologise for?

    So we see the source of the antisemitic slur - pure ideological nonsense.

    ie, just say you are in favour of UN resolutions on Palestine, and you will be labelled anti-Semitic;
    just point out that certain 'God' ordained genocidal bronze age filth needs to be expunged from the Jewish bible, and you will be labelled antisemitic.

    These hyper sensitive Right Wing Jews who see antisemitism everywhere are probably dealing with the (unconscious?) guilt associated with their illegal occupation of the West Bank.

    Then there's the holocaust - for which we are all responsible, for failing to set up the international machinery that would prevent such catastrophies - the holocaust that is the standard backdrop of appeals to so called antisemitism; I notice whenever I speak of these things, someone says "Arbeit macht Frei" or some other veiled reference to Nazism, forgetting I recognise that Christ, the Prince of Peace, my hero, was also a Jew.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  24. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ressida-dick-ihra-jeremy-corbyn-a8522101.html
    This is what I'm talking about, not that mural.

    The liberal left are intolerant; it's 2020, the left intolerant all over it seems.

    Brexit, was about UK taking back control and able to negotiate new deals.
    I don't buy that Brexit's about isolationism.
    The EU's the inward looking border builder protectionist anti competitive so therefore anti capitalist anti democratic body, and don't you forget that.
    Countries signed into the Maastricht Treaty and then that morphed into a political union and pushed for further integration called the Lisbon Treaty and the EU boasted it accomplished this without the need of putting it to the people. However, we're talking about Labour, not the EU; but you're a fool if you think the EU is an international arrangement that's capitalist and democratic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  25. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    You said: "How many Jewish hate crimes has Jeremy Corbyn been investigated in hiding from the police".

    Your article mentions: "Cressida Dick (before the election), the Met Police commissioner, said she would ask hate crime experts to investigate after being presented with evidence of Labour members appearing to call for Jews to be murdered".

    Well...what do you know...just the sort of BS you would expect to appear during a divisive election campaign.....

    "They show people thought to be Labour members making a series of highly offensive comments about Jews".

    "In one post, a member wrote: "We shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on us all."


    etc etc.

    Question: ever heard of white Right Wing nationalism? That comment about "getting rid of Jews" is far more likely to be associated with RW neo Nazi groups.

    The Left?

    "On 16 June 2016, Jo Cox, the British Labour Party Member of Parliament for Batley and Spen, died after being shot and stabbed multiple times in Birstall, West Yorkshire. In September, Thomas Alexander Mair, a 53-year-old gardener with far right views,[2] was found guilty of her murder'

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...-right-wing-extremism-report-2019-1?r=US&IR=T

    All of the extremist killings in the US in 2018 had links to right-wing extremism, according to new report.

    Obviously, zenophobia and racism of all types will more likely appear in low income, poorly educated groups on the Left or the Right; and antisemitism is certainly associated with RW neo-nazi groups.

    Actually, I think the real reason for the rise in antisemitism today is the general deterioration in economic circumstances in many countries and especially increasing inequality everywhere; the Jews, as an identifiable group within many nations, have always been scapegoats for difficult local economic conditions.

    ….while the city of London (financial) types were remainers, and so were the cosmopolitan young.

    There was a good dose of good old fashioned zenophobia based on economic insecurity eg "they (foreigners) are taking all our jobs"

    I can broadly agree with that paragraph: the EU is a complex and in many respects unsatisfactory arrangement designed to avoid war.

    My remedy would be to form a monetary union like the USA, and then the ECB would be able to create funds to enable full employment across the continent (as described in MMT.....and just like Trump is achieving* (unwittingly) in the US, with those huge deficits).
    * at least with unemployment rates which are lower in the US than the EU.

    Addressed above.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020

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