Would you support splitting the U.S. into two nations?

Well then Trump supporters should be all for it!

 

I agree with you. Which is why I see a violent civil war in our future.

 

I douibt very much that they would want to live among us, and nor would we be so suicidally stupid as to open our borders to them.
In any case, they and the Zionists are locked together in a death-grip over there, and all the rest of us can do is to hope the fallout doesn't blow in our direction.

 

Geographically, a split would resemble South Asia in the mid-20th century with India separating East Pakistan and West Pakistan.

Here, we’d have the Northeast and Pacific Coast together (Amerika), and then the rest of the country (‘Murrica).

 

This is either an assertion of fact, or an aspiration, or both. I understand the aspiration. I share it. I wish we were back in the America of 1960, or even 1980, in which Republicans and Democrats would trade places periodically, campuses had both reactionaries and Marxists on the staff and neither feared being sacked for their views or attacked by a mob. (Okay, I'm idealizing 1960 a bit, although in1962 I had both conservative and socialist professors.)

But things have changed.

Your reference to the change from the "the United States are" to "the United States is" -- which I well remember from that marvelous Ken Burns series on the American Civil War -- is very appropos.

We were able to come together after the Civil War, because, although we had been killing each other in great numbers, we considered each other to be Americans. And we respected each other. Southerners were not hanged as traitors,nor treated as such. Many Southerners went on to serve with distinction in the American military.

We (I'm from the South) could put up statues to our heroes, and no one objected. A very American approach, not found,to my knowledge, in the post-Civil War atmosphere of any other country, even though it's so obviously the right approach that others try. (See 'the Valley of the Fallen' in Spain [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_de_los_Caídos] , Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa, etc. ... all coming apart now.)

But that American spirit that brought us back together has now changed, and there is no going back. People who are not fit to lick the boots of any of the men who fought in Civil War on either side, are tearing down the statues of Southerners. Soon they will move on to those white slaveowners, Jefferson and Washington.

I wish it were not so, but we have to face reality.

 

WTF are you blathering about?

I mentioned ALABAMA and LOUISIANA!

NOWHERE did I mention Mississippi!

NOWHERE did I mention the DEMOGRAPHICS of either state!

NOWHERE did I mention "throwing out of the union"!

Next time try responding to what I ACTUALLY POSTED and NOT DERAILING it with white nationalist bovine excrement!

 

With all due respect you are engaging in the Broad Brush Fallacy of painting ALL liberals with the actions of a tiny minority of self appointed vigilantes.

That is both disingenuous and dishonest because it IGNORES the FACT that the existing of Antifa is a RESPONSE to the RISE OF FASCISM on the extreme right! If the jackbooted white supremacist FASCIST THUGS were NOT marching around like Stormtroopers there would be no Antifa.

You reap what you sow and if you are NOT prepared to DENOUNCE the FASCIST THUGS on your side you cannot PRETEND that your side is INNOCENT of all WRONGDOING! To do so would be to desecrate the grave of Heather Heyer who was MURDERED by one of the FASCIST THUGS on your side of the aisle!

It is the EXTREMIST RIGHT that wants another Civil War.

It is the EXTREMIST RIGHT that supports the FASCIST leanings of the criminal IMPOTUS!

It is the EXTREMIST RIGHT that is engaging in DIVISIVENESS including racist and homophobic bigotry!

It is the EXTREMIST RIGHT that spews out DISINFORMATION about those that stand in their way of turning our nation into their white supremacist utopia where everyone else is a 2nd class citizen.

So, no I am not buying any of the bovine excrement claims of "victimhood" coming from those who turn a blind eye to the VIOLENT FASCIST THUGS in their own midst!

And FTR I have NEVER condoned any acts of violence by Antifa because I don't condone violence, period!

 

Lol...Odd that you equate diversity with how many blacks live in an area.

 

Sure. How long would the right last without doctors and anyone with the mentality north of a mature cucumber. Getting in out of the rain would be a chore. The right is filled with blowhards. It would last Until anyone on the right had to make change.

 

Yes, I absolutely accept that there are many liberals who don't approve of AntiFa. However, you see see them as a 'response' to Nazis. People who may be misguided, but who are on your side.

Here is where you are mistaken:

(1) AntiFa attacks anyone on the Right. In their eyes, we are all Nazis. No matter how often we may denounce fascism and white supremacy and Nazis, we are still tarred with that brush. (It's easier than thinking, to just say your political opponents are 'fascists'; [or 'communists' as the case may be]. It "reduces the cognitive load", as the psychologists say. You just practice retrieval rather than processing._

The only person in their eyes ... and not just in AntiFa's eyes, as I have tried to demonstrate with my reference to Professor Mark Bray, and the Campus AntiFascist Network -- anyone on the Right, effectively is a fascist who should be shut down if possible.

This is how the far Left has worked, at least since the 1930s: their political opponents are all 'fascists'. And anything is justified against fascists.

But ... this attitide is becoming common among many ordinary liberals as well. Look right here on this forum.

(2) Nothing stands still. "All that is solid, melts into air". Left-of-center America used to be liberal. It was led by people like Martin Luther King, and John F Kennedy. Free speech was almost sacred to them. (In fact, American liberals had a much better position on this question than American conservatives, I'm sorry to report.)

This is changing, and changing pretty fast. A lot of conservatives still think that they're living in the world of Kennedy, or even Bill Clinton. They're not.The Left has pretty thoroughly taken over the cultureal apparatus, and this will have huge effects. The old liberalism is fading away before our eyes. Even people who are technically in the old Democratic mold -- like Elizabeth Warren -- are now adapting to the new hard Left. (Warren and Kamela Harris have adopted Michael Brown into the Hall of Martyrs -- he's the Black thug in Fergusson Missouri who robbed a store and then attacked a policeman and tried to take away his gun, with fatal results. The Left converged on Ferguson and tried to burn the place down. Obama's Justice Department investigated and found that the policeman had not murdered Brown in cold blood -- diespite the widespread "Hands up, don't shoot!" lies told by the cynical and believed by the gullible.) But now Harris says that Brown was "murdered". A lie, and she knows it. But she has to move to the Left in order to beat Bernie.

So we have to look reality in the eye. The nice, if sometimes exasperating, people we argue with here on Political Forum are not the ones we're going to be seeing on the ground in the future.

To see the future of America, go to where the Left are already in the ascendant, say, Portland, Oregon.

Here's what the future is, in a 'Blue America':


https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/02/huffington-post-far-right-blood-portland-antifa-andy-ngo/

Let's not kid ourselves. This is the future and we on the Right had better prepare for it.

 

Of course you are right. We are all red-necked green-toothed deplorables, taking our views from what our preacher-man told us to believe last Sunday in church, after the rattlesnakes were passed around.

I know this deep stupidity on the part of conservatives is true, because I have given several of them the following test: tell me in ordinary language, what this woman, a leading thinker on the Left, has just said.

The woman in question is one Judith Butler, a leader in leftist theory. According to Wikipedia she is "

Hey, right there, I'm already lost. So you can imagine my puzzlement when I came across that pronouncement by her. I have asked many of my right-wing pals to explain it to me. But none of them can.

So, you see? We're stupid! We can't even understand what the Lefties are saying!!!! Whereas Leftists believe she is brilliant, and understand her easily. (One of my righty friends, a professor at an obscure Bible College, mentioned something about the "King's wardrobe," or "emperor's clothes" or something like that, but that don't make no sense to me. No, we're just too dumb to get it.


In that case, wouldn't it be good to get rid of us?

 

Nope, civil war. Constitutional conservatives take all..

Splitting the nation didn't work well in Vietnam. Here is what happens, left and right go their separate ways, left screws up their country so bad that they justify liberating and unifying with their other half so they attack and invade and when they take over they ruin the whole country. Then conservatives come in and fix it all..

So. Hell no to two countries,

 

Uneducated rednecks are better leaders than ive league progressives.

 

Don't know if you're serious here, but ... this viewpoint, in one form or another, is fairly common on the gun-toting Right.

Usually it's put something like this: "The Left??? Ha! They're a bunch of snowflake sissies. We're the real men, and we've got the guns." Maybe there is some reference to the political leanings of ordinary policemen, and the military.

All true ... but ... the Left has,or will have, the popular majority, and eventually, the Constitutional majority. They'll be the majority in both branches of Congress, they will have the Presidency, and, eventually, they'll have the Supreme Court, not to mention majorities on the Federal Benches.

So, in a civil war we might win the military victory, provided we could neutralize and/or split the military, but we would have to institute a minority dictatorship. This really is not what we're about.

Anyway, the Left are not stupid enough, I think, to force things to a confrontation. They move a step at a time, doing this here, doing that there, always just taking the next small step. No one of which actions is enough to provoke people. Everything will be legal. And no-one in the military will have to violate his oath of office.

If we 'split the nation' -- have our own sovereign territory -- we'll be secure. Vietnam happened because there was a deep-seated belief among many Vietnamese that the South was not really independent, but was a corrupt puppet-state of foreigners. Plus the North Vietnamese were not pussycats -- no snowflakes there, but hardened veterans of twenty years of war, having a border with China which had a border with the Soviet Union, so trainloads of supplies could flow right into into North Vietnam and then be shipped South. Leftland-America would have none of those motivations or advantages.

It's interesting, but probably pointless, to speculate what the future of Blue America, minus its conservatives, would be. It's hard to picture, actually. They would have to relax border controls a great deal. They would have to severely restrict the way police dealt with criminals of color. They would crack down on anyone who appeared to object to the ensuing mayhem. What their military and police would look like, after sufficient diversity and sensitivity training, just invites laughter. We might see a second wave of secession, the creation of Aztlan and the Republic of New Afrika.

I think most of their business owners would make up a second wave of immigration to Red America, and we might even find our territory expanding as ordinary people over there got fed up with treading in human feces and doging bullets from the narco-cartels who would move in.

Or hey ... maybe it would turn into progressive socialist utopia, with a Univeral Basic Income of 500 000 dollars a year, all the work done by AI-directed robots, everyone all lovey-dovey with each other.as they enhanced their dopamine levels while lying in front of a 3D wallsized flatscreen....

We can't really tell what the two halves of divided America would look like. There's only one way to know.

Let's give each other a chance to find out.

 

Nope. Indivisible...

 

agree, honestly the concept of splitting is quite ridiculous. Childish might be a better word.

 

Lots to digest there. I'll make one comment.

The left is already pushing us to that point where we will have to defend our rights.

They think being the majority makes them right. They think the majority gets whatever they want and that's the right way to do things.

 

The Idea of the USA becoming "2 Nations" is completely infeasible and unrealistic.

In any event, I would be against such a notion.

 

You are correct. They are pushing and pushing and pushing. We go back and back and back.

The question is, what to do about it? Exactly how should we defend our rights?

In posting on various social media, urging people to come to the 20 January demonstration in Richmond, time and again I ran into people who boasted or threatened that, if the Left wen too far, they would, effectively, come out shooting. Sometimes you would find people who were mesmerized by the sort of pseudo-legal claptrap that motivated the Posse Comitatus forty years ago. I knew it was all hot air, and that these people would probably not even bother to come to Richmond on the day.

And ... there was a distinct possibility that some of them were government, or amateur, provocateurs.

An armed confrontation with the state, so long as that state has democratic legitimacy, would be a tactical and political disaster. Even if it lacked democratic legitimacy, the question of when to move from the weapon of criticism, to the criticism of weapons, is a delicate one -- semi-political and semi-military.

A good introduction to the problem can be found by reading Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution, available for free in eBook form, from Marxists.org. Highly recommended, especially the lessons to be learned Bolshevik tactics during the so-called 'July Days'. A. Neuberg's Armed Insurrection, also available from the same source, is also useful, although it contains mainly negative lessons.

In any case, even if some sort of armed uprising was morally justified, we are at the moment far too weak. A few thousand overweight middle-aged men playing soldier, which is what the current militia movement resembles now, will be brushed aside by the 82nd Airborne. That 'resemblance' is the caricature of an enemy -- but it's uncomfortably close enough to the truth to make any sane person think a hundred times before breaking with legality.

Another consideration: the 'III%'ers -- a national militia movement -- claims that only 3% of the American colonists actually fought the British. This has been contested, but assume it's true. Well, there are about 25 million conservative males in the US. Recruiting three percent of them would give us 750 000 people. We have about two orders of magnitude to expand, before we are anywhere near that. Another metric: counting reserves, there are about 2 million people in the American military. If there is ever a serious, sustained armed conflict in the US, if the military have not been split, through political maneuvers, then whoever has it on their side will be the winner.

So ... keep it legal, keep it peaceful.

 

There is no doubt that it would present enormous practical and legal difficulties to both sides. But 'infeasible'? No, it's feasible. Many nations have split, causing lots of problems, but ... they did it anyway. And you will see it again in the future: Scotland will leave the UK -- the lawyers are already rubbing their hands together in anticipation of all the difficulties. Who owns the government property which happens to be physically in Scotland at the moment, but was paid for by the British government? Who will pay the old-age pensions? And so on. But it will happen.

I understand your opposition. Almost everyone Left or Right would agree with you at the moment. But I believe that the advance of certain deep political trends with in the US will push the Right over the edge, and the option of a peaceful separation will become more and more desirable.

So ... since I think it's inevitable ... Jail more Christian bakers!

 

It's already illegal, its already unsafe, it is already unpeaceful.

Local law enforcement needs to know we support them in their disobedience to state laws that are unconstitutional.

"Assault weapons" bans are unconstitutional.

such laws are not designed to defeat crime but to make good people into criminals so leftist tyrants can get us in jail and out of the way for their take over..

Hell no i will not be safe and peaceful for that.
No good person wants a gun ban. Wanting one makes you a bad person and an enemy of the constitution.

 

She's saying that leftists have shifted from doing a theoretical analysis of capitalism (you know, Das Kapital and all that), to applying the theoretical knowledge they've accumulated in order to seize power.

 

I'm against it our country works just fine the way it is.