Live - Democrat Debate in Nevada

As an initial matter, this thread is about the Nevada primary Senate, but here is a thread devoted almost explicitly to the topic of climate change .

http://politicalforum.com/index.php...e-continents-hottest-temperature-ever.567973/


And there is a reason that I said 100% of actively publishing climatologists agree with the basic tenets of AGW.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0270467619886266

But if you think the number is closer to 97%, as NASA does, that's OK with me.
But yes, I am aware of your list of 31000. Would you like to explain why i should care about a list with more mathematicians than climatologists?

Similarly, you raise the spectre of heliocentricity. And I have to wonder - why are you using the opinions of people who died 400 years ago to justify your opinions today?

 

Is it just possible that we could kind-of, sort-of agree that climate change as we observe it at this point is probably caused primarily by three things? The short list:

1. There are 7.8 BILLION human beings on the Earth today! The increase in human population is a "J-curve" of staggering proportions.



2. Natural atmospheric and geological changes in and above the planet, irrespective of the activity of humans.

3. Solar activities and fluctuations -- both those that are predictable, and, the abnormal.

Humans DO generate enormous amounts of toxic pollutants of ALL kinds. No rational, sane person could deny that!

The Earth itself undergoes changes all the time with devastating effect for humans -- floods, fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanoes, and so on.

The SUN? Now, that's the big unknown. Ultimately, the sun controls everything. But of the three things I've outlined, mankind can only "DO SOMETHING" about ONE of them -- and that is mankind itself....

 

As an initial matter, the population growth is only nominally different from anthropomorphic greenhouse emissions. As one grows, the other grows - until we come up with a better method for energy production.

As to your other two causes, they do - in general - cause climate change. So do orbital variations and asteroids. But they do not explain the current warming trend. We can measure volcanic activity and solar intensity and orbital variations and asteroid strikes. The only variable that does a decent job, and it does an exceptional job, of explaining the current warming trend is anthropomorphic greenhouse emissions.

This website does a really great job of graphing NASA Goddard temperature change data against potential climate change variables.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/

 

*shakes head*

It is proof that the majority of scientists and other people can all claim they know the "absolute truth", then be proven to have been completely wrong. And it happens over and over again, that is how science works.

At one time, the Atom was the smallest thing known. And many believed there could be nothing smaller. Until the early 1900's, this was a universally accepted fact. There was nothing smaller than the Atom. Then JJ Thompson proved the existence of Electrons, and it shook the world of physics to it's core (and won him the Nobel Prize).

And then we coasted like that for decades, the Electron was the smallest thing there was. But now we know that these particles are made up of even smaller particles, and now there is speculation that they may in fact be made up of even smaller particles. I had learned the older model in school, when the "quark" was an almost legendary particle that many still did not believe existed.

But the point is, you do not even seem to understand when even most scientists have been wrong. Heck, even the "Father of Nuclear Winter" admitted he was completely wrong after preaching about it for decades.

 

Bernie is running away in early voting in Nevada, breathlessly reports Wolf Blitzer. Congratulations, Social Democrats of United States of America

 

I understand the talking point and the historical lesson to be gleaned.

But why do you think climatologists are incapable of learning, or have not acted based on those potential limitations?

 

I'll have to wait to get access to the site. I had already hit my 'limit' of free articles. I love Bloomberg news (and typically disagree with the editorials quite a bit). Anyway, it has been the best site for news on the Corona virus, and I've used up my access for right now....

I certainly do agree that the huge human population is definitely a big cause of the overall problem -- but -- I disagree with the liberal Democrat contention that all we have to do is tax the living hell out of Americans and the problem will be solved. When proposals have been made that it should be China and India who should be taxed most of all to clean up the horrific amounts of air pollution (because they cause the lion's share of it), they just laugh at the rest of us... and none of the other countries want to have 'their ox gored', either....

 

That is the problem. To far to many on the Left, they think money is both the cause and the solution to everything. They see a problem, and it must either be heavily taxed, or have money thrown at it and that will solve everything. We have seen this with the VA, with Healthcare, with issues over and over again, and it never does any good.

Here in California they are taxing the state to death, and people are fleeing the state. Most estimate now that over 200,000 left the state between 2018 and 2019, and the census this year may actually result in the state loosing one Congressional Seat and Elector in the Electoral College. And the states that got most of those have been Arizona and Texas.

As you said, people in this state are getting sick of "having their ox gored", and are packing up and leaving. And insanely, many Democrats want to follow the same policies nation wide.

 

Since the early 1990's, we've gotten huge numbers of migrant Kalifornians here in Colorado, too, and they've mostly settled in 'enclaves' in Denver, Boulder, Pueblo, and the richie mountain towns, like Vail, Aspen, Telluride, etc.

They have completely wrecked the political situation here in Colorado -- now we're saddled with a 'Colorado Assembly' (the 'legislature') where liberal Democrats control both houses. We've got a flaming liberal, homosexual governor, too, who injects all the hyperliberal venom he can, everywhere in government that he can. Between the Assembly and that governor , we're really making a comprehensively f*cked up mess of what used to be a common sense-oriented, low-tax, lower cost-of-living state. Now everything's gone out of control (including masses of homeless bums) and the cost of living has skyrocketed all over -- especially in all areas that are infested with Democrat majorities.

You've probably heard it before -- we call it the "Kalifornication" of a state once those idiot-lib bastards move in and take over....

 

And they run to red states, then vote in the same sort of people that caused them to leave CA. It’s like they have brain damage. It’s like NYers moving to FL. They leave NY due to the taxes and then vote for morons that want to increase our taxes. Total brain damage.

 

Oh, that had been going on for a lot longer than that! The hippies started to migrate to that area way back in the early 1970s, and it started to change even then. John Denver was a big recruiting took for that group when he was singing about "Colorado Rocky Mountain High".

Hell, the great CW McCall even wrote a song about it in 1976. And when I visited Colorado in that year, it was obvious they were well and truly planted in that area already.

 

You make an EXCELLENT point! These Kalifornians are driven out of their own home-state by high taxes, by huge increases in cost-of-living, by idiotic governmental policies, by increasing loads of "politically-correct" bullshit, and they spread like a virus to the other states. That much is at least roughly understandable....

But then, as you say, they deliberately set about to vote for and bring about exactly the same kind of economic and social INSANITY that they were running away from in the first place!

When is that fabled 'earthquake' ever going to hit?! And when it comes, will it just dump coastal Kalifornia into the ocean -- ka-SPLASH!? Of course not -- the rest of us won't be that lucky....

 

And for all of this combined, it really is more of a case of Urban Vs. Rural, or Big State Vs. Small State.

This for me is a perfect example of the problems of "Democracy". It favors the large population centers, at the expense of the rural areas. People who choose to live in an overcrowded, polluted, and crime ridden cesspool then want to try and fix things, normally by forcing their views on others. Or they think that they want something, so use the power of their population to take whatever they want, because they have the most votes.

For decades now, internally California has had many secession movements trying to resolve those tensions. Keep the San Fernando Valley part of LA, keep large areas of LA, Kern and San Bernardino under their control and refuse to allow the area to form the "High Desert County", Jefferson has been an issue now for almost 80 years. And essentially it is all the same thing, people in the rural or less populated areas feel they are being taken advantage of, and want to break away so they have more say in their own affairs. But the large population areas do not want to loose their tax money or resources, so fight it tooth and nail.

More and more lately, we see in here in water. Cities like LA and Baghdad by the Bay demand more and more every year, and the rural areas are essentially forced to give it to them. It seems like every 3 years some new law is passed which makes it harder and harder for the farmers to do their jobs, and many have simply quit.

Hell, most are not even aware that most of the dairy farms in the state have shut down, and most of the milk consumed is starting to come from out of state. Something like 70% of California dairy products are now used for cheese and butter, not drinking. The regulations and taxes have driven the small ones out of business.

And of course the divisive politics only keep getting worse and worse.

And yes, there really is a tax in this state, which fines farmers for cow farts.

 

Very informative! I had no idea that there had been so much 'internecine' secessionist activity within the State of Kalifornia.

Now that it has rubbed it into the faces of the rest of the country that they intend to be full of 'sanctuary cities' and that Kalifornia itself is a 'sanctuary state', AND that there's evidently a lot of coastal-Kalifornians who want to secede from the United States, I wish we would just LET THEM GO! GOOD RIDDANCE!

During my long life I've seen California go from being the absolutely sparkling envy of the rest of the nation -- an almost indescribably wonderful, beautiful state where life was great, prosperity was abundant, and nearly everybody was happy, to what it is now -- a confused, angry, two-class, miserable pile of sh!t... made up increasingly by a parasite class that wants to TAKE all and do NOTHING in return for it except bitch and complain continually, and, of course, vote for even more radical, America-hating DEMOCRATS.

 

I did hear of a study of Californians who moved to TX, it said the first few elections they continued to vote Democrat but after that not necessarily.

 

Oh, it has been going on for many decades.

I remember the fights in the 1990's, when the San Fernando Valley wanted to break away from LA City, and much of the Mojave wanted to break away from their own counties and form their own. In each case, they were seeing their tax dollars going to fund large projects where the population center was, and getting nothing in return.

In the Palmdale-Lancaster region, they had Highway 138, the deadliest in the state. Most of this route was only 2 lanes, with lots of arroyos (dry river beds) that made distance almost impossible for any distance. And the citizens up there were demanding it be widened to 3 lanes with a passing lane that would switch between them every few miles.

That was one of the reasons they finally fought to break away from the county, money was taken to fund projects like widening freeways in the metro area, but the outskirts got nothing. The movement was quashed, and finally the country responded. They left it as 2 lanes, but simply put in a cement divider between the 2 sides. A partial solution, but now it is horrible to drive, as a single slow moving car or truck will back people up for many miles behind it.

The same in the San Fernando Valley. A judge there said that like in the County one, that the county had to agree to let the area go before they could break away. And since that is also the final destination of the California Aqueduct and a large source of tax revenue, you can guess how well that worked out.

And a few years ago I saw the horrible treatment first hand. I live in Oroville, where our dam almost collapsed because the Governor ignored the advice of experts, and in order to save some water in a time of record rainfall he ordered the dam to flow over the top, causing billions of dollars in damage. And to add salt to the wound, he would not even activate the National Guard to help with the millions like me who were evacuated. He stuck that entirely on the backs of the local cities and counties.

Then had the nerve to demand the US government give him Federal Disaster Relief funds. To repair the damage to the dam his own bad decisions caused.

But it does not matter, out voices mean nothing because we are not in the LA-SF-Sacramento metro areas. Live in those areas, you get almost anything you want. Live outside of them, you get garbage.

 

~ LA is not doing so well in spite of all the money. What a mess San Francisco has become. Sacramento too.
I remember Mayor Richard Riordan doing good things for Los Angeles. He really was responsible for cutting red tape and getting the freeway repaired quickly after the quake. He was the last good keeper of the city.

 

He was also the last Republican Mayor in that city, and will likely be the last one ever.

And it is amazing what the area was like in that era. He tried to get the Police Academy expanded, and the city council fought him at every step. He tried to expand the light rail system, and was again fought at every step. In fact, while he was in office the city council pretty much destroyed all light rail funding.

Something I always found amazing, as it is supposed to be Democrats that want rail projects as a way to ease traffic and congestion, and to stop "greenhouse gasses". But they are the ones that killed the expansion of the LA rail system, and instead added even more busses than ever.

And that streamlining for Caltrans for freeway reconstruction was actually by Governor Pete Wilson, who is the one that ordered the freeways repaired immediately, and that there was no time to use the usual bid system. He also ordered the construction of more light rail, which was also later cancelled under Grey Davis.

 

~ Yes they worked together on that. Wilson was Republican as well. We had a good shot at responsible government back then.