Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

..and, the theory of common ancestry isn't even good science.. no repeatable, observable data to support any of the assumptions, just dogmatically repeated mantras of faith..

Common ancestry is a religious belief, not 'science!'

..off topic, but a pet peeve, due to the hysterics from the militant 'science!' Believers..

 

That is blatantly false, like so many other of the 'beliefs!' of the anti-science, anti-christian ideologues.

https://www.livescience.com/waterworld-earth.html

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/03/ancient-earth-may-have-been-a-water-world-without-any-dry-land

Global warmers believe that the melting ice caps would flood the planet, and if the ocesn valleys were raise3, and dry mountains lowered, there is plenty of water to completely cover the earth.

From quora:
"If Earth without water was a smooth ball, it would have a radius of 6,368.28759 kilometers. The whole thing would have a radius of 6,371.00604 kilometers. So, the depth of this ocean would be 2.71845 kilometers. This is compared to the current average of 3.682 kilometers."

 

And do you know how long it took to copy a book in Hebrew or Greek. Try and learn a bit about the ancient times and ways.

The divinity of Christ is nowhere to be found in the OT. Forget your Christian teaching and study the OT as it was written in ancient times. It is in Hebrew language and in it's translation many words are misinterpreted. In addition many Hebrew words had no equivalent in Greek and so the nearest word was found and used. It happens in many translations today - not just of the Bible.

Well the writers of the Dead Sea scrolls didn't make a very good job of copying the Book of Isaiah. It varies in some small ways from the Hebrew Book.

Jesus wasn't rejected by his own people. He was rejected by the Jewish religious hierarchy. Neither was he disowned by his mother. She was at the cross. All the stories of crowds shouting at his trial is rubbish. Most people would have been away in bed or preparing for the Passover. Those 'crowds' would have been hired by the Priests, and would have included the Jewish Temple Guards. The ones who guarded his tomb..

 

Jesus was rejected by his own mother's sons and daughters. I think David mentions that.
Catholics think Mary died a virgin.
Yes, his parents believed in him, so too did his brother James, much later.
This "divinity of Christ" in the OT. The trouble is people have their own definitions of the
word 'divinity.' But when Job said "I know my Redeemer lives and he shall stand on the
earth in the latter days" I am sure Job was speaking of the divinity of Christ. This redeemer
is already alive; he is a man; he shall come to earth one day. And he's a Redeemer, not a
Messiah king in this particular instance. Zechariah links Redeemer and Messiah king in a
lovely way. David and Isaiah speak of this suffering Messiah as one day seeing the fruits of
his life and death.

Jesus was embraced by many Jews. He was famous throughout the Middle East.
But most Jews did not embrace him. And Jesus spoke to many who believed on him
that they believed on him for the wrong reasons.

 

Sorry. I forgot to post the source. Yes it is a Jewish source, but then the Jews should know their own scriptures. And if you study the times and OT it makes complete sense. Not some Christian interpretation

Again I say ' study the OT with an unbiased mind. After preaching the Gospel for many years it was hard for me to do that. I stuck at it and now I understand the OT more than you ever will. It is Jewish - not Christian. And if you go back to the start of the Jewish religion that is also made up of beliefs from earlier religions. Many Christian rituals go back through Judaism to earlier religions. When you stand up on Easter Sunday and declare Christ risen you are following many ancient peoples who, at some particular day in their spring watched the sun rise and declared 'He is risen'. The sun god had descended into the underworld in late autumn (time of death) and rose in the spring (time of new life). Other similar festivals also date that far back. There's nothing new under the sun.

 

With this argument you are saying in effect "They are false, therefor they are ALL false."
Rising, risen, renewal are common motifs - that doesn't diminish what Jesus did.

Someone said that take any ten Messianic prophecies, nine are of the King and 1 is of the
Redeemer. This ten percent deeply confounds the Jewish mind - at least the Pharisaic,
Sadducee, Herodian and Orthodox minds. These feel no need of repentance, they want
an earthly king instead. To the Euphrates and beyond. A suffering Redeemer doesn't fit
their mindset. Text must be ignored or (like Isaiah 53) somehow explained away. The Jews
envied Jesus' healing and crowd pulling power, but his words did not resonate with them.

nb there are "Christian" rituals, ie Catholic, which do go back to the OT. Most of these
rituals (Easter, Christmas, priesthood, altar etc..) are not authorized by the New Testament.

 

Don't believe everything you read. You don't know the closeness of Jewish families. Who is David and what has he to do with the Catholics? How on earth do the Catholics believe mary died a virgin when Jesus had brothers and sisters?

Job is just an allegorical story, It is probably written in the Second Temple Period. It's nothing new. The same subject can be found in many ancient religions and writings as far back as 2.500 BCE. I gave you one earlier. Why do the righteous suffer has been a subject of debate since the beginning of time. We don't know who wrote the Book as it is a mixture of languages. Probably more than one person.

Jesus wasn't famous about the Middle East. In Palestine he was known as a preacher, You say the people believed on him for the wrong reasons. Why did they believe on him? For what reasons? Why were they wrong?

Neither David, Zechariah or Isaiah seal of Jesus. The whole book of Isaiah is about Israel. When it was written, and for millennia after, there was no chapter 53. It was written as one complete book all about Israel. The Psalm used to refer to Jesus is actually David going back over his life and remembering all his sufferings. Even being 'pierced' by Absalom's treachery, and being opposed by many of his family at times. Study the story of David in depth. It all fits in. I've already given you Zechariah.

 

Someone said? And they were wrong anyway. Jews do feel the need of repentance. See Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And texts are not ignored. See my last post.

Someone also said that given sufficient time all prophecies will come true. In other words if I prophecy the end of the world it will come true - given time.

Most of these
rituals (Easter, Christmas, priesthood, altar etc..) are not authorized by the New Testament.

Then you don't celebrate the Birth of Jesus in December of the death and resurrection of Jesus at Easter?

 

The chance of Jesus being born on 25th December is about 1 in 365. If it was important, like the
Passover is important, then we would be given a date. Like the burial place of Moses, no date is
given because it would just become a pagan style point of worship.
I figured its about one in a thousand chance that you could get the process and sequence right
for Genesis' first account. Something similar must apply for accounting there will one day be a
Hebrew nation with a monarchy but it will all end with the Messiah who will be believed upon by
all the nations. And then, after a terrible exile, the Jews return to their nation.
Yes, Jews believe in repentance - what I meant was they feel content with the rituals of the Old
Testament. And now, there's no more daily sacrifice.

 

Yes, no chapter, verse, even separate words for a lot of scripture.
Isaiah 53 and the latter part of chapter 52 speak of the Messiah as
the suffering Redeemer. David has nothing to do with Catholics but
a lot to do with Christianity - he gave us some lovely songs about the
Messiah - 22 and 69 come to mind. David wasn't speaking of himself,
nor of Israel, when he wrote of the one who had his hands and feet
pierced - offered vinegar and gall, betrayed, staring at his bones,
dying for his people - and one day looking back at his own sacrifice
in satisfaction. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

We have no idea when Job was written. I am okay with a Bronze
Age setting. Like everything in the bible, it makes no difference.

Jesus was famous as a preacher and a healer. It says the fame of
him went out into all the regions about. Jesus spoke of those who
wanted to make him a king but didn't understand his message.

 

Of course we don't know when Jesus was born. But if, as a group of people, you want to celebrate something each year you set aside a day. Dec. 25th was chosen. and has remained so. The same reason why Christians worship together on Sunday and not on separate days of the week. While The Passover is important to some Jews There is no evidence for any captivity in Egypt, ergo, no Exodus. The story was, as I said before, simply written to give the Hebrews an origin. The only oral/written history they had was as far back as 'David'. Probably leader of a tribe that helped throw out the Egyptians around 1200BCE. The story gave them an origin.

The Genesis first account is just an adaptation of many similar accounts throughout the Middle East and Egypt. The rest is just your interpretation.

Don't understand this.

 

David was talking about his own life. The Jews wrote and spoke in allegories, parables and poetry. These are all shown in many OT stories and Psalms. Simply look at the life and teaching of Jesus. All are shown in the Gospels.

Jesus was famous as a preacher - the rest is purely down to your beliefs. You really believe the Temple curtain was rent top to bottom?. That bodies of the dead rose from the graves and went into Jerusalem? Your choice.

 

In your atheist/non-believers worldview that would be your perspective. However when we view morals through a Christian's worldview we see a whole different perspective.

The Bible declares to us, man was created in God's image. So since we were created in God's image then part of that image makes man a moral being. We make moral choices being that we are moral agents thus we are able to differentiate between right and wrong. Our knowledge of God's law is the basis upon which we differentiate between right and wrong. From two sources, revelation and our conscience comes that knowledge.

Revelation is self-explanatory. God gave a commandment to Adam and Eve in the Garden. He gave Ten Commandments to the Israelites after the exodus in Sinai, and Jesus boiled those Ten Commandments down to two essential commandments—love God and love your neighbor. All of these represent God’s revelation of His law, which is simply a reflection of His moral character to His people.

So yes, in one sense you are correct to say moral codes have been around as long human culture has, however to say it has been around way longer than the idea of Yaweh or Jehova been in existence would just not fly in the Christian worldview because essentially what I have presented above pretty much sums up what we Christians believe in that our morals came from our Creator, Almighty God, who is the only Perfect Moral Being in existence, who has always been in existence because He is the Eternal One, He has no beginning, He has no end.

We Read in Scripture:

18 So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. (Hebrews 6:18 NLT)

Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (Psalm 90:2 NIV)

 

Here's where it's interesting. It's well nigh on impossible even for many religious people to
believe people rose from the dead and went to Jerusalem. But then we are given accounts
that appear to be impossible yet we know actually happened.

ie Jesus warned his people that when you see Jerusalem surrounded in armies then flee
quickly. Don't look back. Roman Twelfth Legion besieged Jerusalem and was close to
battering down the gates. For an inexplicable reason General Gallus withdrew, right on
dusk. His legion was massacred, caught in a ravine near Beth Horan. For a few hours
the celebrating Jews opened the gates and celebrated. When the realization sunk in as
to what would happen next the gates were shut once more. The Tenth Legion under Titus
besieged and destroyed the city "and her children within" as Jesus said.
That warning saved the lives of a few who remembered or read of Jesus.

And Jesus said the Jews would return to Jerusalem one day. That alone was something
ridiculed by Jew and Gentile alike. Until that miracle Six Day War delivered Jerusalem to
the Jews in 1967.

So yeah, I took find that account of people rising from the graves difficult. But the rest just
mention is history, improbable history.

 

Psalm 22 in particular - David is NOT speaking of his own life.
He's writing of someone who's experience was not his own.
His account here of the Messiah on the cross is particularly
compelling. Not sure if David was even familiar with crucifixion.
David writes of one who shall be preached upon in all the world,
and told to a generation yet born that this man has done this for
us.

The bible's account of David is compelling in its rawness - a
flawed man who raped a woman and killer her husband, a man
who told his son Solomon to tidy up what he couldn't - and kill
his enemies. Not the righteous man David writes of in 22.

 

David is one of the most despicable characters in the Bible, definitely in the Top 10 if not in the Top 5. A snake is a better role model than he is.

 

No, not a "snake"
That stereotypical and simplistic.
David sinned, like we all do. But he sought forgiveness and he paid
the price for his sins. Wasn't it said of him that he was a man after
God's own heart? His forgiveness of Saul, his Psalms etc show
another side to this man.
You could say that Moses, Abraham, Paul, Elisha etc sinned often
and killed many people as well.

 

If David was a man after God's own heart then God should have had a fatal heart attack.

 

The one Jesus said was the greatest of all prophets was John the Baptist.
Even John came to a point where he openly questioned Jesus. Jesus had
to tell him "Blessed is he who is not offended in me."
So sure, "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" as Paul put
it.

 

What a shock for the people of Jerusalem to see their dead relatives alive and well. Please be real. That stretches incredulity to its limits.

Do you understand the situation in Palestine in Jesus time. The Bible doesn't give any indication of it. It wasn't a peaceful time.The Romans had to deal with unruly Jews, false Messiahs, uprisings. Jesus wasn't a fool. It was clearly obvious what was eventually going to happen. The Romans tolerated so much, but no further. The Zealots had tried to rouse the people against the Romans but had failed before. This time they didn't. They rallied sufficient numbers to defeat the first Roman army but it was inevitable that they would eventually fail. Jerusalem had been destroyed by Antiochus and the new Jerusalem would now be destroyed by the Romans.

Jesus was an astute man. In the same way many of the so-called prophets were astute men. Like 'Isaiah'/Jeremiah they could see the actions of their people and the probable result, and warned the people. They ignored and history was written. North and South Kingdoms were overcome by their own actions and stupidity.

Such people have been known throughout history, and have been proved right. And this doesn't just happen in high circles. It may have happened to you. Has no-one ever come to you with a plan which they are enthusiastic about. Have you never been able to see problems in that plan which they have missed, or ignored? When you have explained to them the problems you see, they have either realised their mistake, or gone ahead and most likely failed. As it were you've 'prophesied' what could happen, and you were right.

Winston Churchill was right when he 'prophesied' what would happen if the UK ignored Hitler. Prophecy isn't some gift to a particular person. It's simply seeing what might/will happen under certain circumstances. and saying it.

There is no evidence that Jesus actually said this. Matthew and Luke's Gospels were written after the destruction and this could have been added later as history. Mark refers to the Greek Antiochus Epiphanes.

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION:

By: Louis Ginzberg
Table of Contents
An expression occurring in Matt. xxiv. 15 and Mark, xiii. 14 (A. V.), where the Greek text has τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς έρημώσεως. The Greek itself, however, is referable to a Hebrew expression, , found in Dan. ix. 27 (where the ם of has been added, through a copyist's error, from the מ of the ensuing word); in Dan. xi. 31, and in Dan. xii. 11 (with omission of the prefixed מ).

The context of these passages leaves no room for doubt as to what was intended by this somewhat odd expression; namely, the transformation, by Antiochus Epiphanes, of the sacred Temple at Jerusalem into a heathen one.
Jewish Encyclopaedia,

 

Really? So a Prophecy about someone 1000 years in the future is relevant? For what purpose? How did that affect the people of the time? Prophecy is useless unless it is for the people of the time. If some well respected Preacher prophecies that the world will end in 2854, what effect will that have today? Please don't insult my intelligence.

This is a prayer that carries us from great suffering to great joy. Despite apparent rejection by his friends and God, David believed God would lead him out of despair. He looked forward to the time when God would rule over the whole earth.
There's no reference to Jesus. It was written in the Hebrew manner I spoke of before.

2000 years of indictrination by the Church, 15 years indoctrination of Jewish children, 1400 years of indoctrination by Islam. All with the threat that if you don't believe what we tell you, you will 'suffer'.

 

All morality is subjective and entirely dependent on social consensus. Morality is an artifact of society, not the other way around.

The "god given" morality of the various ancient religions are all predicated on their societies' practical necessities for collective success.

The fact that some people believe that their ancient morality is literally carved in stone, is plain and stands as a stark beacon

Yes, my rejection of your holy scriptures as factual and inerrant does inform my personal philosophy. For instance, I consider the notion that your version of god made us humans in his own image to be one of religion's greatest conceits.

Fact is that human morality predated both Judaism and Christianity. Organized religion codified and expanded on those morals under the guise of "god given" directives. I totally understand how "you Christians" believe your god gave you your sense of right and wrong as the operating boundaries of human behavior and social decency.

 

The Jesus character never did anything godly. As I have said before, if he was still wiggling on the cross it might prove that he is some kind of a God.

 

You might need to define what you mean by "godly" because it's obvious
we could agree if we have rigid definitions of words.

 

Like your response, it has forced me to think more deeply.
I wasn't "indoctrinated" into believing Psalm 22 is Jesus - I just happened to read it one day
and was struck by its similarity to the Gospels.
God made it clear to the Hebrews that what we call the 'Old Testament' was never going to
be enough. The temple was never going to be God's house; animal sacrifice wasn't going to
wash away sins; dietary, divorce, inheritance rules are "of the fathers" and not God's request;
the compulsion of the law says nothing about your heart. And so on. And time and time again
God gave the people His promise of the Messiah - both as suffering Redeemer and as reigning
King. And also, when the Messiah DOES come you will know Him from the promise, and can
make the distinction with pretenders to the throne (none wanted to pretend to be a Redeemer
and pay the price for people's sins!)