Why is there evil in the world? (my thoughts and logic)

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by kazenatsu, Jun 23, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Is God responsible for evil?"

    This is a question that has come up a few times in the Religion & Philosophy section.
    However, almost all of the comments have unfortunately been of a low intellectual caliber. Really pathetic and rather disappointing.
    So I thought I'd share some of my perspectives on this, trying to apply some logic and sense.

    For the purpose of this discussion, we will assume that there is a loving all-powerful omnipotent God, because that's basically the essence of this philosophical dilemma, how can there be such a God that exists and there still be evil in the world?

    We will also deal with the challenging question, "If God created beings who do evil, does that make God responsible for that evil?

    Well, here's a surprising answer for you all. Yes, in some sense, that does make God responsible for the existence of evil.
    I think, despite all the explanations put out there, there's no way of entirely getting around that.

    The issue is that "evil" is a little bit of a nebulous ambiguous concept, in some ways. And evil does not necessarily translate into being "bad".

    I think there are numerous examples in biblical scripture that could be found to support this concept.

    We know that an evil individual can commit evil with an evil intent, and for that action to end up resulting in something good, in a way that individual did not intend.
    For example, a murderer could kill someone else hoping to get money, but unknown to them that other person really deserved to die, and would have gone on doing horrible things if they were still alive.

    The question then that can be asked is, is evil really necessary for good to happen?
    That is an interesting philosophical question, and a deeply complex one.
    One that I'm not going to entirely be able to get into and pick apart here.

    But I think it may be more important to view this in terms of "God's order".
    We know, for example, that Biblical scriptures clearly give some indication of Hell, a place where people will suffer. The question then can become who should suffer, not why does suffering take place.

    If we can accept the concept that some people deserve suffering due to the evil they have done, then part of the question of the existence of suffering becomes a much easier one to answer.

    Now there are many people here who claim "A loving God could never cause people to suffer, even when it is for doing evil things", but I think these people are holding God to standard different from that to which they would hold themselves, if they were in charge of running things in the world, or a different standard from which they hold to government instituted by man.

    It's hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty to complain about God doing something when you are perfectly fine with the government doing that type of thing, or you yourself would want the same thing if you found yourself in that type of situation.

    But this only covers a certain category of suffering.
    Surely there is also suffering to be observed where there is no obvious connection to it being deserved.

    Now one could suppose, this is where "trust in God" comes into play.
    Maybe those individuals do indeed somehow "deserve" what they get but we just are not able to see it. Presumably there would have to be some type of punishment that transcends time, with individuals getting punishment for something in their life before they actually did it. This is an intellectual possibility.
    But I'm not going to rely on it for the argument here.

    The next possibility is that suffering could ultimately be beneficial.
    If you keep children from ever having to deal with anything bad, they will not know how to deal with it.
    It's possible individuals on earth might someday be trusted with huge responsibilities in the afterlife and be able to deal with these things.

    The third possibility is that it might be for our benefit, in terms of knowledge. It might be necessary to demonstrate what our reactions to these situations are. Perhaps for a future time so that no one will complain that they were not given more responsibilities.

    Perhaps it is important in Heaven for everyone there to know that everything is in its proper order, that everyone has what they deserve, and what they should get according to their abilities to make proper choices. After all, it wouldn't really be "Heaven" if everyone there thought things might be otherwise. And perhaps to know this, it has to be demonstrated, in a world with evil and suffering.

    Another possibility to mention, it is possible there could be constraints on God's power. That is, it is possible for him to do anything, but only within the realm of what can exist.
    It could be possible that in order to bring the type of order God wants to the world (which is the ultimate good, which no one at that time would dispute), the present world full of evil may have to exist.

    If this was the case, I suppose it could be philosophically arguable to say whether God is truly "omnipotent" then, which could be another interesting discussion we are not going to specifically get into here.
    It could be that God is extremely powerful, and very close to being omnipotent, but being just a tiny degree away from being able to do absolutely anything could end up necessitating the presence of this world, to fulfill some crucial purpose.

    It could also be that the purpose of the existence of this world is too complicated for us to understand.
    If that was the case, then presumably there must exist some other way (or ways) to come to faith, intellectually and logically, to God, without having to know why suffering exists, or at least the total why.
    (That is of course assuming the existence of a Biblical-style God; a hands-off God is also an intellectual possibility, just to mention here)

    It could be that there is some sort of divine justice that demands retribution, where someone has to take the punishment, even if that person is someone else willingly taking the punishment for someone else who deserves it. This could go into a whole other complicated topic. It could be that both the human soul, and the soul of God, demands this. Maybe it really can take someone else being willing to take up punishment they don't deserve for us to be willing to forgive. Maybe there is something divine about our sense of retribution, that is our choice and God will not modify it, and if we are in Heaven, that sense of retribution has to be fulfilled, otherwise we are not fully satisfied, and then it would not fully be Heaven.
    (Thomas Aquinas actually wrote that one of the joys of the righteous would be seeing the suffering of the wicked)

    People of faith have had some insights into the reasons for suffering. Especially in the Catholic tradition. They believe that sufferings can be "offered up to God", perhaps even of some supernatural benefit. In the same way that Jesus Christ suffered, so too do they, in some sense.
    While that doesn't necessarily really explain the mystery of suffering, it does link the suffering of righteous believers with the suffering of the central figure of the story in Christianity. Asking why Jesus had to suffer then becomes sort of the same question as asking why good people believing in God have to suffer. Certainly it might at least help us get more insight and perspective on the question.

    One possibility, perhaps God created the world to show mankind what things would be like if he was not fully present.

    It could be the world would fall apart and become a virtual Hell if God was not actively intervening all the time and at least partially present, but it is fair to say God is not fully present in the world.
    (As the saying goes, Heaven is wherever God is)
    "Presence" is a matter of degree, it's not necessarily an either/or, all yes or no, thing.
    Think about signal reception from antenna, for a crude example.


    This explanation will continue, but there is not room enough to put it into one post.
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In the manga/anime story Berserk, there is presented an underlying theological concept that the suffering of the entire world is due to an entity known as the "Origin of Evil" (which can also be translated "source of evil", "source" like the source of a river, and this is also a homonym for "idea", an idea being the "source" of a concept, so it can also be translated as "Idea of Evil", and this was very likely entirely intentional by the creator).
    The entity tells the main character that it "creates reasons for suffering", since people want to have reasons for suffering, thus in some sense it fulfills their desires.
    This could imply in some sense that the existence of suffering itself is somehow extraneous, but the entity simply creates a framework of reality so people can try to understand (or think they understand) why there is suffering, or be able to have a way to conceptualize it, as it is presented to them in the form of a reality.
    Or it could be that these people are somehow in the mind frame of, although they might not realize it, in their innermost being desiring suffering (if not in themselves than in others). Thus the existence of evil could be a materialization of those desires.

    This fictional theology likely has its roots in Theravada Buddhism, in case any of you were wondering.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  3. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very simple. There is evil in the world so we would know, by contrast, the goodness of God.
     
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  4. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I think evil is completely compatible with God. It is only with facing adversity and challenge that you really grow. And you grow the most when you are thrown into unpredictable situations with the possibility of failure. If God swooped in and cured every disease, we wouldn't have discovered modern medicine. The human race is culturally and technologically progressing because of the challenges we collectively face.

    What I disagree with is deciding someone's eternal fate based on just 70 years when some people get it harder than others. Reincarnation makes a lot more sense, and we live numerous lives where we keep learning new things.

    The hell thing also doesn't make sense either. Torture is immoral and eternally torturing people for finite sins is a bit extreme. Its more constructive for the guilty to pay a restitution to the victim and receive therapy to become a better person. It also obviously doesn't make sense to eternally punish someone for believing the wrong religion.

    Science has also shown that our hormone-ridden brain is responsible for a lot of the crazy stuff we do. God could have just as easily given all of us the best brain possible. The brain works if it is part of the reincarnation test itself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, so far I have to say I am pleasantly surprised by the intellectual caliber of how this thread is going so far.
    I wasn't expecting this much, especially for the first two posts on the first page.
     
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As I said earlier.....after the fall in the garden, Adam began his accusations against God. He claimed to "know better" than God. In other words, after he ate of the fruit pride came in. His accusation "that women that YOU gave me beckoned me to eat...". The above post is an example of that accusation/ "Torture is immoral",....." the hell thing doesn't make sense"'

    It makes perfect sense. Torture is not "God inflicted". It is self inflicted. We do it all the time even in this earthly existence. We do it out of "choice". We just don't want to shoulder the responsibility, so we blame God. We might say "That meth YOU gave me caused me to act insane....." " YOU could have given me therapy to become a better person, but YOU didn't....."

    Partner, Life is therapy. God speaks to all of us ALL the time. When you choose not to listen, take responsibility for your choice. Don't blame HIM!
     
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  7. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference. In this story, Adam knows God exists because he met him. We don't know if the Hebrew God is real and could have been an invention of bronze age people in the Middle East. Your argument assumes God already exists which is fallacious.

    Hell is described as a lake of fire, a place of eternal destruction, and a place of fire and brimstone on numerous occasions. If fire is a mere analogy for hell it is strange that it is brought up so many times. There also is no solid biblical support for hell merely being a place where we torture ourselves. The firy destruction of Soddom and Gammorah is compared to hell so it appears hell is a physical lake of fire. The physical pain of Jesus is what atones for our punishment so God's punishment is physical.

    Also, hell is obviously much worse than earth, as it is a punishment for what we did and described as extremely unpleasant. It doesn't make sense that it is just self inflicted just like on earth. Many people live without God just fine here on earth, and get over disappointing events like a disability and accept it eventually.

    Its also strange that God would let people just sit around in hell feeling depressed all the time instead of giving them other chances to grow and learn with reincarnation. It doesn't make sense for a eternal punishment for finite sins and for your eternal fate to be determined by the tiny 70 year sliver of your eternal existence.

    Heaven doesn't make that much sense either. Good Christian people are flawed so there is no reason they won't be sinful when they reach heaven. You also learn and grow best when you have adversity, so they won't grow effectively in heaven. This is why reincation makes the most sense and eastern religions are more likely to be true.

    Buddhism is the most like religion to be true. It has the proven practice of meditation and a way of eliminating personal suffering and creating happiness and contentment. It is a history of peace unlike Christianity. It also has the concept of reincation and there are many people who report memories from past lives. I do have my own issues with Buddhism and these reports but they are minor compared with Christianity.

    How does he speak to us? And how do you know its God?
     
  8. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Reincarnation makes the most sense to you because YOU like the level of accountability it provides (which is none).You have your own answers....I don't know where you get them but they certainly are not from the Word of God. God's Word is the very definition of Love.

    Christians will become without sin when they see Jesus as He is for the scripture says "we will be like him". That does not mean we won't be unique individuals with much to learn.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
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  9. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting topic. But let me argue that there is no evil in the world with the exception of the human mind. Pain seems evil. But what better way to defend a body? One death feeds countless lives.... simple as they may be. And if you equate evil in the world there must be justice? What if things are just the way they are?
     
  10. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Religious folks believe that God created everything. Therefore he created the devil aka. the Evil.
    They also believe that God loves mankind, so he shouldn't accept evil and stop it.
    Obviously, God's behavior cannot be explained with human logic. Or he's just crazy. :D
     
  11. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Werner Earhard expressed it this way.....what is is. I find it mindless. Without evil there would be no need for Justice, Mercy, or Grace. We would have the adventure of a "Rock"!
     
  12. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    There is no god, so it's not responsible for anything.
     
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  13. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    Another version: God created the world, good and evil, and the left us alone to watch us fighting.
     
  14. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you know there are a good many of us that disagree.
     
  15. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    If you enjoy fantasy.
     
  16. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It might appear that way to one who turns his back on Him.
     
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  17. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Enjoy your fantasy. Examine the facts, if you're able, and then come to the conclusion, if you're capable.
     
  18. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your fantacyhas no more credibility.
     
  19. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Facts, dear boy, facts.
     
  20. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your facts of course.
     
  21. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Christianity is zero accountability. All you have to do is believe in the right religion and you get all your sins forgiven by Jesus. You then get to spend the rest of eternity in heaven with no more judgement or punishment. Zero accountability. Additionally, if a non-Christian did some bad stuff to me and goes to hell, this doesn't help me out at all. I don't get any restitution for the wrongs done for me. Hitler killed 6 million Jews and goes to hell (assuming no deathbed conversion). Doesn't help the Jews at all. Since the Jews aren't Christian, they go to eternal hell for even the slightest sins like hating their prison guards. I don't see a lot of true accountability here.

    Reincarnation religions believe in the concept of karma where your actions come back to haunt you. If you live a bad life, you will suffer more since doing evil hurts you too. You will also be reincarnated as a lower being. If you give a good enough life, you will eventually reach the highest level of a Buddha and live in eternal peace and enlightenment. If you don't live good lives, you will exist in this eternal cycle of suffering until you do. We could also have something where you pay restitution for those you wronged between reincarnations. Just because I don't believe in eternal punishment for finite sins doesn't mean I don't believe in accoutability.

    True, except for the genocide and homophobic verses. Just skip the entire Law of Moses if you are looking for love in the bible.

    So by just seeing Jesus you become a basically perfect person even if you weren't that perfect aside from being Christian? How does seeing Jesus magically change your personality like that? Why not just have everyone see Jesus so we are all amazing people, and avoid the whole earth thing?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think maybe you don't fully understand what "believing" is.
    It's not merely so simple as just an intellectual belief in fact.

    Suppose there are two corridors. If you go down one way, you know that you will be killed; if you go down the other way, you know that you will be able to get out of there; but you don't know which one is which.
    You meet two guys in there. One says "Go this way, that's the exit. Trust me!" The other one says "No, he is lying. He wants you to die. Go the other way!"
    Which one of those two do you choose to "believe" ?

    This is the type of belief of believing in a person, not believing a fact.

    That's the whole belief of Christianity: That you can't work out things all by yourself.


    "Belief" in this context also entails more than just a mental idea. If you (truly) believe something, you act on it accordingly. Belief is inextricably tied together with righteous conduct.
    (if anyone was curious about the faith vs works false dichotomy)
     
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  23. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    What you say makes a lot of sense. Christianity talks a lot about being born again, and I don't think you can really be born again by just having a belief. Also the bible says that faith without works is dead.

    But even so, even devout Christian who try hard still make a lot of mistakes and they don't get punished for them, which isn't much accountability. Also, you could have been a horrible person for the first 70 years, but then became born again, and got forgiven for all the stuff you did in the past.

    I don't actually have a problem with zero accountability. It does seem pointless to punish someone if nobody else is being helped out and he is not positively benefitting from the punishment either. This idea that mistakes require punishment because justice, is more like revenge. Its just inflicting more pain and making things worse. It doesn't help anyone.

    So I'd say that the Jesus thing is actually better. My problem with it is eternal punishment and reward, and hell for unbelievers.
     
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, "belief" sets a lower bar than perfect conduct.

    Also the concept of salvation does not necessarily imply complete lack of accountability. There could still be some degree of punishment.

    Catholic theology, for example, has the concept of purgatory.
     
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  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My thought on this: Maybe it is possible some people will not be able to enter into heaven unless they know someone else suffered. Because to enter heaven, one has to let go of revenge, and forgive. So justice could be important for the salvation of other souls.
    It is, of course, much easier to forgive when you know the other person suffered for what they did, and especially if they got all they deserved.

    One could of course ask why God does not just simply wipe the memory from existence, but that I think would be interfering with personal human will. The fact is, if an individual is harboring unforgiveness, they are choosing not to forget.

    There could be something divine, or very important, about individual human choice, which God does not want to just mess with, for some reason.
    When humans pronounce what is "good & evil" onto something.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020

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