There Are No Permanent Secular-Political-Solutions To Spiritual Problems.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I wrote this piece mainly for Christians, but non-Christians might find it
    interesting.

    Introductory Remarks:
    My entire family are Christians. We are all strong Conservatives.
    We are all Republicans. We have always voted for the Republican Party.
    We always will do that. We support Law and Order.
    Laws are necessary. Laws do reduce crime.
    Politics is necessary. Politics is merely what we do {policies , , , political policies}
    Nations do what they do, because they believe what they believe.
    There is no possible way to escape "the political process."
    Politics is here to stay until the end of time.

    Politics can temporarily solve some human problems.

    But politics can never solve the root problem, which is spiritual.

    A diseased ROOT will always produce "bad policies" fruit.

    Fix one political problem, and another will appear somewhere else.

    Diseased root. You must cure the "bad root" problem. to have good fruit.

    So? So there are better solutions to human problems than political
    solutions. These better solutions are spiritual solutions,

    Nonetheless , , ,
    Many Christians seek political solutions to what they will admit are
    spiritual problems.

    They seek to "elect the right kind of men" to political office with the goal of
    fixing America's many moral, economic, and political problems.

    Read this next paragraph very carefully , , ,
    They want the Christian moral code to become a reality through the political
    process. My view is this is utterly impossible to achieve. Here is my view of
    that in a nutshell: There is not a shred of Biblical evidence that teaches the
    way to fix a nation’s spiritual problems, is to elect “the right kinds of politicians"
    to public office. That is pure fantasy. The notion that: If we can "just somehow
    elect the right politicians", then we can legislate the Christian moral code into
    law” is pure fiction. This is never going to materialize and become a reality.

    Here are some of my reasons why:

    My view is that permanent change can not come through political laws and
    through the “political process." It is impossible to solve human problems apart
    from the supernatural power of God Almighty, and His Son the Lord Jesus,
    and the power of the Holy Spirit.

    {1} You must first change hearts before you can change minds.
    {2} All human moral problems are at root spiritual problems.
    {3} Moral problems are what causes political and economic problems.
    {4} There are no lasting secular political solutions for spiritual problems.
    {5} But there are lasting spiritual solutions to spiritual problems.
    {6} Those solutions must start with this:
    {A} John 3:3 You must be born again.
    {B} John 3:16 You must accept the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
    {C} Galatians 5:22-23 You must allow the Holy Spirit to produce
    the fruits of the Holy Spirit in your life, which are:
    {a} love
    {b} joy
    {c} peace
    {d} patience
    {e} kindness
    {f} goodness
    {g} faithfulness
    {h} gentleness
    {i} self-control
    This changes the "root" of the problem.
    This changes the heart.
    Which then changes the mind.
    So that men desire to do what is right without being "forced to do right"
    by the political process , , ,laws , , Police with guns , , jail time , ,etc

    Anything not the above will fail to permanently solve the "political" problem
    You can “throw money” at it.
    You can “throw laws” at it.
    You will fail.
    If you DO solve the problem in one area, the same ROOT problem will
    pop-up in another area. We saw this principle being played out in the
    streets of America as rioting, looting, burning cars, burning buildings,
    physical assaults, and murdering people was occurring right in front of
    Law Enforcement Officers and elected politicians, who, at the time, did
    not prevent it from happening. All this has a "root problem" that has
    been a reality for decades, and if this present social chaos is "solved"
    by politics, the "root problem" will re-appear, in another form, somewhere
    else in the "garden" of America. Its merely a question of "when" and "where"
    and "how bad" it will be, the next time it pops-up.

    Thought For Today:

    "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray
    and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven,
    and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.___2 Chronicles 7:14

    ``


    ``
     
  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    What is a 'spiritual problem' ? Sounds like an oxymoron.

    seems to me, one, or both, are true:

    1. All problems are spiritual
    2. No problems are spiritual.

    But I don't accept 'only some problems are spiritual', that makes no sense.
     
  3. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    You say you will vote for the Republican no matter what - then you claim there is a moral basis for your voting ...

    Utter bull crap.
     
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  4. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    There Are No Permanent Secular-Political-Solutions To Spiritual Problems.

    Nor are there any spiritual solutions to secular-political problems. They have nothing to do with each other.
     
  5. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    My bold. So you love people of colour, as well as gay people, and fully accept their rights as equal to yours?
     
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  6. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your comments.
    Thanks for reading the Opening Post.
    We are in mess here in America.
    There are only two political parties that can win national elections.
    A person who votes can vote either GOP or Donk for President.
    Me and my Family always have, and always will, vote Republican.
    Why? Because that's the best we can do under the present circumstances.
    __________

    I hope you found my Opening Post intellectually and spiritually stimulating.
    What I wrote was not perfect to be sure -- but it did honor God and put Him
    First as THE ONLY permanent solution to human social, political, and
    economic problems.
     
  7. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    jmo, but republicans don't fight as fiercely against reality as the democrats fight fiercely against reality.
     
  8. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I do love people of color.
    I do love all people.
    I do not love the behavior of all people. Neither do you.
    Yes I accept the rights of all people as equal to my rights.

    By the way:
    I do not think we can legislate the Christian moral code
    into law and enforce it --- doing that would require a police
    state. Christianity does not want its moral code enforced
    by courts who send out police with guns to enforce its
    laws. The two great core principles of Christianity are
    "Love God with all your mind, heart, and soul" and to
    "love your neighbor as you love yourself" --- these two
    principles cannot be codified and enforced by courts
    sending out police officers armed with weapons.

    Christianity does not advance throughout the world
    through courts of law. rather Christianity advances
    supernaturally through the power of the Holy Spirit
    to do the following:

    ~ John 3:3 You must be born again {spiritual regeneration}
    ~ John 3:16 You must accept the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
    ~ Galatians 5:22-23 You must allow the Holy Spirit to produce
    the fruits of the Holy Spirit in your life, which are:
    love
    joy
    peace
    patience
    kindness
    goodness
    faithfulness
    gentleness
    self-control
    This changes the heart.
    Which then changes the mind.
    Which then changes the behavior.
    So that men desire to do what is right without being "forced to do right"
    by the political process , , ,laws , , Police with guns , , Jail Time , ,etc



    ``
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  9. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    So that includes gay marriage?
     
  10. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    My view:
    A spiritual problem is when there is an absence of the following
    in the life of a human being:
    They have never been born again John 3:3
    They have never accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior John 3:16
    Therefore they have never allowed the Holy Spirit to produce the following:
    in their lives:
    love
    joy
    peace
    patience
    kindness
    goodness
    faithfulness
    gentleness
    self-control
    {Galatians 5:22-23}
    This changes the heart.
    Which then changes the mind.
    Which then changes the behavior.
    So that men desire to do what is right without being "forced to do right"
    by the political process , , ,laws , , Police with guns , , Jail Time , ,etc
    _____________

    The people who were out there rioting, looting, burning cars, burning
    buildings, and murdering people, did not have in their hearts what I
    listed up-post.

    So?

    So they have spiritual problems.



    ``

    `
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's your problem, it certainly isn't mine.
     
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  12. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Miscellaneous Points:
    Marriage is a religious ceremony. That is what my marriage was/is.

    The Courts will decide the Social Issues such as
    Gay Marriage
    Abortion
    Pornography
    Serial Divorce.& Remarriage
    Public Nudity On Beaches
    Public Nudity In Night Clubs
    Nudity & Vile Vulgar Language In Movies.
    At the present time all that up there is mostly on Go!
    Read my Opening Post to see how all that can be changed
    for the better.

    In this American Democratic Republic , , ,
    What is, or is not, a legitimate Civil Right will be settled by the courts or the
    President/House/Senate -- most likely by the SCOTUS. This is a fact of
    reality.

    In this American Democratic Republic , , ,
    The people have a right to change WHO is the President, and
    members of the House, Senate, and SCOTUS. And throw the
    present office-holders out.

    In this American Democratic Republic , , ,
    The people have a legal right to lobby to make publicly-announced-atheism
    {or eating bananas} a capital crime upon penalty of death by hanging.
    You have the legal right to lobby against that. {On your lights, there is
    no God to appeal to -- so here on Earth that leaves only humans. You can
    make you appeal to other humans to support your political cause. You
    might can get a Majority Vote to agree with you --- or you might not.}

    The People As god , , ,
    Back to publicly-announced-atheism , , ,
    If they can convince let us say 80% of the voters to fully support that,
    then it is what it is, and you can either obey the law and not
    publicly announce atheism {or not eat bananas} or you can defy the
    law and when they hang you, you can rail against what you might claim
    to be an "unjust law" up until the time you draw your last breath. Gasp.
    Remember there is no God and when they put the rope around your neck
    Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett can not help you {they
    are only 3 votes.}

    So its reasonably certain that you're not going to appeal to the God of the
    Bible to support your claim that the law is unjust as they hang you.

    In a Democracy, or in a Democratic Republic, the 80% can become your
    god and they can enforce their god-hood upon you with brute force.
    They can dictate to you when you can, or can not, go to the bathroom.
    You can preach against all that as long as your god, the 80%, permits
    you to draw breath. I say the 80% -- it could be the 60% or even the 51%
    if the 51% are prepared to fight and win a Civil War to impose their political
    will upon you. Here you can do whatever you CAN do -- to prevent the 51%
    from forcing you to submit to their god-hood over you.

    I don't think that up there is a good way to live. I would be against the 80%
    doing that. I would preach against it. Just as you would preach against it.
    I use the word "preach" because that would be all you could do, when they
    put that rope around your neck --- remember there is no God to appeal to.
    Only men. And so you would preach against what they were doing to you.
    But they would preach right back and hang you anyway. In this situation
    you would be the Rev. Diablo preaching against the Mob.

    That would not be a good thing for the Mob to do. I'd be 100% against that.

    My view on how to peacefully change a nation is presented in my Opening Post.


    ``
     
  13. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I don't view it as a problem.
    You asked me a question.
    I gave you my answer.

    Quote For Today:

    The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
    He makes me lie down in green pastures,
    he leads me beside quiet waters,
    he refreshes my soul.
    He guides me along the right paths
    for his name’s sake.
    Even though I walk
    through the darkest valley, a
    I will fear no evil,
    for you are with me;
    your rod and your staff,
    they comfort me.
    You prepare a table before me
    in the presence of my enemies.
    You anoint my head with oil;
    my cup overflows.
    Surely your goodness and love will follow me
    all the days of my life,
    and I will dwell in the house of the Lord
    forever.
    Psalm 23
     
  14. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Not so, it's a civil condition, although you can have a religious ceremony if you wish. In any case, if you can have a marriage, whether in church or not, then so should gay people, since you said that everyone has the same rights as you. Unless you're back-tracking.....no, you would never do such a thing.
     
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  15. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    That is not a "moral" basis for voting. Moral means that you vote the candidate, not the party - and
    if the candidates don't meet your moral convictions, you write in a candidate.

    I can't see Jesus saying, "Vote for the candidate who only cheated on his wife three times instead of the guy who cheated four times ...". Your "morals" are a joke.
     
  16. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    That you view the lack of 'accepting Christ as one's savior" as a 'spiritual problem' is such only to Christians, as yourself, but not to non-Christians, who have no problem acquiring aspects of compassion, decency, love, etc., without becoming a Christian.

    In other words, your qualification for a 'spiritual problem' is manufactured.

    In my view, life has a spiritual basis, and therefore, if that is true, and I think it is, then all problems, regardless of what one believes in, also have a spiritual basis.

    But one does not have to be a Christian to be 'spiritual', keep that in mind.

    In fact, if life has a spiritual basis, then regardless of one's beliefs, regardless if one has none at all, everyone are spiritual beings.

    You might find someone who detests swimming in a swimming pool or river, but that doesn't alter the fact that we are what 75% water.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  17. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Miscellaneous Points:
    No back tracking.
    I try to be honest with you.
    Put yourself in my place. Empathy.
    I am a Christian.
    I am a Conservative.
    You know that I, as a Christian, can NOT morally approve of:
    Gay Marriage
    Abortion
    Pornography
    Serial Divorce.& Remarriage
    Public Nudity On Beaches
    Public Nudity In Night Clubs
    Nudity & Vile Vulgar Language In Movies.
    Use of Illegal drugs.
    Hate speech on the Internet.
    All the other many sins Americans commit.
    _______

    Here is the present situation in America.
    America is about 50% Liberal Democrat and 50% Conservative Republican.
    With this kind of split, it would require BRUTE FORCE for one side to
    force it's political will on the other side on the list of Social Issues up there.
    So with this roughly 50-50 political reality fixed firmly in mind, I say
    the following
    :

    You know that I do NOT want the Christian moral code, to be codified into law
    and enforced by the Courts via them sending out their Police with Guns.
    You know that because I told you I did not want that. And I truly don't want that.
    We're talking Police State here big time --- to actually get the Christian moral
    code on the Social Issues ENFORCED with LAW. Then there is another
    "little" problem with that, namely they can COME AFTER ME JAG too ya
    know. How so? Well, I might decide I do NOT agree with my fellow Christians
    on some point , , and they might decide to HANG ME up with a rope. You ask
    would they do that? Yeah! You bet they would. They HAVE done exactly such
    as that in the past. And today, sad to say, the HATE runs thick and deep in
    some Christian Forums on the Internet as the Protestants and Catholics
    literally "eat each other alive" with harsh bitter insults and curses as both
    sides "go for the jugular vein" to destroy their doctrinal opponents. This
    ought not to be -- but it is. Its a 21 century reality.

    So back to the problem , , ,
    You know that I do not believe Christianity advances in the World through the
    decisions of the SCOTUS or the Presidency, or the House & Senate.

    So?

    So that leaves the solutions put forward in my Opening Post.
    Which are applications of John 3:3 followed by John 3:16
    followed by Galatians 5:22-23 --- in other words peaceful
    political change wrought only by the supernatural power
    of the Holy Spirit. No force. No guns.

    ___________


    Nonetheless, there has to be laws: I DO support law and order.
    From the Opening Post:
    JAG Wrote:
    We support Law and Order.
    Laws are necessary. Laws do reduce crime.
    There is no possible way to escape "the political process."
    Politics is here to stay until the end of time.
    Politics can temporarily solve some human problems.



    ``
     
  18. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    OK, so you don't accept that other people should have the same rights you do. That's back-tracking. Took you a while to get there.
     
  19. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    The teachings of Jesus confront us with the total and ultimate responsibility of the individual for that individual.
    This is what is subversive, what runs counter to "the world".
    It runs counter to what "Christianity" is as it functions in "the world".
    All this orientation to the exterior and materialism, which in human history has never been so exalted as in today's America, is the error that excludes any spirit of holiness in collective life. The best one can have now is an interior state in keeping with the message of Jesus.
    It should be clear that, for this state, one need not be considered by others, nor even consider him/her self as, "Christian", that term being too polluted for usefulness.
     
  20. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reasonable comments.

    Naturally as a Christian who takes the Bible seriously,
    I am compelled to believe that anyone who has not
    accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior has a serious
    spiritual problem. If I didn't believe that I would have to
    scrap John 3:16 and the rest of the New Testament.

    Agreed. You can acquire compassion and decency
    without becoming a Christian. However the New
    Testament makes it crystal clear that this type
    of "good works" will not save you.
    Here is a shortie on that , , ,
    "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked
    down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to
    the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The
    Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not
    like other people-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even like this tax
    collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the
    tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to
    heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me,
    a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went
    home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves
    will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be
    exalted."Luke 18:9-14

    __________

    "In fact, if life has a spiritual basis, then regardless of one's
    beliefs, regardless if one has none at all, everyone are
    spiritual beings."___PDS


    Agreed.


    ``
     
  21. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    No.
    That is your spin.
    Your twist.
    Your interpretation.
    You will believe what you want to believe.
    "Each man hears what he wants to hear,
    and disregards the rest."___Bob Dylan
     
  22. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your comments.
    Sorry. I don't understand a word of that.
    Maybe you can re-explain what you mean.
    I just don't get it.
    How does that relate to the Opening Post?
    Or are you just making a random comment? If so, that's cool.


    ``
     
  23. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I go to the trouble to write you a rather lengthy
    post and take the time to explain myself. Then you write
    back with your short one-liner and that's all. Do you think
    doing that keeps the discussion going? Or that it ends the
    discussion.? Its pretty cleat that it ends the discussion.
    Okay.
     
  24. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    That is all find and dandy, but as a spiritual person who embraces the teachings of all sages, Buddha, Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti, Sadguru, Lao Tsu, Christ ( mainly from the Gospel of Thomas ) and others, everyone's destiny, whether they know it or not, whether they accept or not, is spiritual fruition. And it could happen within one's lifetime or some future life time.. Christians call it 'Heaven" In other philosophies it has other names, such as "Enlightenment", "Samadhi", "Nirvana", "Self-Realization", etc, this is our destiny, our spiritual heritage, and requiring 'belief' in anything, doesn't speed it up, or slow it down, it's going to happen, eventually, in this life, or some future life ( I accept the teaching of reincarnation, and I think Christ did, as well ). One achieves this by right conduct, right living, integrity, and most important, humility. One need not believe in anything, as one's beliefs are dictated by one's culture, but common to all cultures, is decency, humility, etc., ( or should be ).

    Even aliens other planets will benefit from humility, but how can an alien benefit if you believe the only way to be 'saved' is to be on this planet, and be in a culture which is exposed to the Bible? See, it makes no sense, it says to tribes in the amazon who have never seen a white man, you will suffer for eternity, and is that just? What kind of God does this? The Christian teaching, in my view, is not the teaching of Christ, it is the teaching of men in antiquity who have written, years after the fact, what they THINK is his teaching. Now, I don't doubt elements Christ's teaching are in the Bible, because there are some very uplifting and high minded quotes from that text, but I think it's been skewed, throughout the dust of centuries, but I believe the esoteric teachings of Christ, those whom he bequeathed to his inner circle, those teachings are not in the Bible. whereas........

    This is why I prefer the Gospel of Thomas, the texts of which are esoteric ( hard to comprehend ) which was excluded from the Biblical Canon -- apparently it happened gradually, but we can assume Popes had everything to do with what was included, and excluded, from the Biblical Canon, and the idea that 'God wrote the bible' doesn't square with the archaeological record. Some say it was the Emperor Constantine (who curated the Biblical Canon), but the debate continues. What is known was that during the time of Christ, and following him, there were many Gospels and not all of them made it into the Biblical Canon, and those books were revered by various tribes in various ways, and I believe it was Constantine who decided to put and end to the chaos of all the books, and create a Bible, but this debate is not settled.

    The Gospel of Thomas has no narrative, no story, is merely 114 quotes of Christ, direct from his lips to paper, or so the saying goes. I believe there is a greater likelihood that more of Christ's esoteric teachings are in the Gospel Of Thomas, than in the Bible. It makes sense to me that Popes and men of antiquity would have misunderstood the Gospel Of Thomas, and thus excluded it, as esoteric teachings are often misunderstood. The Gospel Of Thomas scriptures, similar to how the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, they were found in a cave, amongst other 'Gnostic' gospels, at Nag Hamadi in 1947. We were very fortunate to have found them, and, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are believed to have been written by the Essene Jewish sect.

    Anyway, In my view, achieving spiritual fruition, merging with the eternal spiritual force, that force rewards two things more than any other : Strength AND humility. But, of the two, humility is far more important. Strength just enables one a longer life, more opportunities for enlightenment.

    Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" ( Matthew 5:5 ). The word meek from the original language was used to describe reining in a stallion. It is the idea of a horse being controlled by a bit and bridle. The horse is choosing to submit to authority. That is meekness." ---Christianity.com

    I chose the above quote from that website because it confirms something I've always believed, the word 'meek' does not mean 'weak', the translation was lost, apparently, but I've always believed that true translation of the Aramaic ( if it were available ) Christ meant 'humble' and 'disciplined', and not the English 'meek' which has 'weak' as a connotation, and the analogy given by the Christianity.com seems to confirm this. That is why I say spirituality rewards strength plus humility, and in 'strength' we can add 'discipline' ( noting it's origin in the meaning of 'disciple' ). I think this is especially true given empirical observation, history teaches us conclusively that strength is better than weakness. Why wouldn't that be part of any spiritual discipline? How can one be a 'disciple' if one is week? One must acquire strength to journey on an arduous spiritual path.

    Meditation can speed up the process, which is why all of the eastern sages recommend it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  25. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I read all that.
    Each and every word.
    Thank you for taking the time to share your insights.
    I really appreciate you doing that.
    You have a good mind.
    I hope I have made at least some measurable contribution to your life.
    I'd be satisfied if it was even this much 0.0001
    If not, I will continue trying.
    Take care.

    _____

    Thought For Today:

    Here are the characteristics of the Principle Of Love as presented in
    First Corinthians chapter 13.

    {1} Love is patient.
    {2} Love is kind.
    {3} Love does not envy.
    {4} Love does not boast.
    {5} Love is not proud.
    {6} Love is not rude.
    {7} Love is not self-seeking.
    {8} Love is not easily angered.
    {9} Love keeps no record of wrongs.
    {10} Love does not delight in evil.
    {11} Love rejoices with the truth.
    {12} Love always protects.
    {13} Love always trusts.
    {14} Love always hopes.
    {15} Love always perseveres.
    {16} Love never fails.
    {17} These three remain: faith, hope, and love.
    {18} But the greatest of these is Love.



    ``
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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