The Unique US Failure to Control the Virus

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by CenterField, Aug 6, 2020.

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  1. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    The warnings are on every single pack.
     
  2. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Yes. IOW, Sweden and South Dakota ignored the designated "experts" and did the right thing.
     
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  3. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'd like to see the evidence that other countries are undercounting. I can't say I entirely believe in what Dr. Birx is saying. She is a member of an administration very interested in playing down the numbers due to electoral concerns, and she knows very well that if she contradicts the big boss, she is toast. So I'd say that she has less than unbiased interest. Anyway, there are 214 other countries out there. Are you sure that most or at least many are miscounting? Which ones? Any links to demonstrate it?

    Regarding the economy, what people don't seem to realize is that failing to control the outbreak is just as damaging to the economy, or more, than the epidemiological measures (e.g. lockdown) employed to control it. Why do you suppose the economy is stalling again and reversing course downward, again? Because people are afraid of the worsening numbers. Look, my governor has already authorized restaurants to serve sitting patrons, not just take-out as the previous reopening phase indicated. So restaurants are allowed to operate under 50% capacity... but they are largely empty as people in general don't feel confident yet, because they see the numbers in my state worsening sharply, so that now it is actually MORE dangerous to go out to eat in a restaurant than before the lockdown. Consumer confidence is one of the main drivers of an economy, and if the outbreak spirals out of control, that confidence will be lacking. Countries that have actually beat the virus have been reopening more fully and have been seeing more robust economic recovery than we're seeing here.

    And that's only one part of the equation. Like I've been saying, it's becoming more and more evident that COVID-19 has more mid-term consequences, and possibly long-term ones once we start seeing long-term situations in this novel disease, than initially assumed. Take the flu: if you are susceptible, non-vaccinated, and you catch a bad case of it, rapidly either you die or if you don't, you recover fully and in a few days you're back to your usual self with no sequelae left behind. Not so with COVID-19. Not only it takes much longer to recover from it, but many come out of it with severe consequences.

    Read this, or the more user-friendly account of it; I'll link to both:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

    https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-causes-heart-damage-healthy-people.html

    Scary, huh? 78% of cases including 67% of them with mild disease... coming out of it with heart damage.

    And that's only ONE organ. Read this:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ovid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists

    OK, so, now, think of it in economic terms. Think of the HUGE economic impact for decades to come, if say, 5% of the American population of infected people come out of it with severe health consequences. Guess what? They'll need to treated. They will go into disability. They will have loss of productivity. They will have decreased lifespan.

    Say, 70% of our population gets it. Say, 5% of those come out with chronic medical conditions that need treatment and decrease labor productivity. Do you know how many people that is? Freaking 11,575,000 people. The destructive power this can have for an economy is SEVERAL TIMES bigger than all the economic damage you guys keep complaining about, related to lockdowns which are basically over by now (all states have reopened to various degrees).

    In a pandemic, the biggest economic damage comes from NOT controlling it, not from controlling it even if the measures to do the latter are bitter.
     
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And living, technically ;)
     
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  5. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nowhere in that warning is the word 'suicide' is my point.

    Killing me softly with whiskey and tobacco takes many years.

    Suicide is an act, but not over a period of 30 or 40 years.
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Seems to me that those using the stats as an argument to restrict us are the ones upon whom the onus to demonstrate the relevence and accuracy of said stats rests.

    Is it just sit-down patrons that have reduced? Seems to me if they're selling less food, including takeout/delivery, its because folks have less money more than because they're scared.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  7. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, the infection fatality rate of about 0.65% is not the whole story. There is also the matter of survivors coming out of it with severe and life-long health consequences. Do look at the links I've provided in post #128 above. And do give a good "independent thought" to the issue of the economic damage resulting from NOT controlling the pandemic, as detailed in the above post, as well. THAT'S looking at the big picture. If you are an adept at looking at the big picture like you said, you'll appreciate this approach.

    As for Main Stream Media, you'll rarely see me quoting them. The vast majority of my quoting comes from scientific journals and trade journals. When I quote one of the MSM articles about something, it is to respect the rules of this forum in terms of starting threads, which require quoting a source that is not behind a paywall or subscription. But my opinion on this is formed by scientific papers, not by the MSM.
     
  8. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Emotions and fear do not work for me, sorry.

    This whole exercise has been a scam.
     
  9. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is also the issue of consumer confidence. Afraid of upcoming crises, even those who have not lost jobs (the unemployment is huge now at 11% but you need to realize that 89%, consequently, are still employed) are not as willing to spend. The concept of disposable income has changed now that we have an economic downturn and people feel they need to prepare for the worst case-scenarios.

    About your first phrase, you were the one who made the assertion that other countries are counting differently. I'm waiting for YOU to prove this assertion. I didn't issue it, so I have nothing to prove.
     
  10. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What exactly do you identify as "emotions and fears" when I quote something like this? Seems pretty objective to me. Results of cardiac MRI, results of Troponin levels. What kind of scam is involved in it???

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

    Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  11. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    IMO, A cigarette brand called CANCER STICKS with a big skull and crossbones on every package would dominate the market.
     
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  12. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    Why else would one indulge in smoking such a proven unsafe product?
     
  13. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    You say .65 is not the only matter, which is technically true, and then devote the rest of your post to an appeal to emotions, about how risky life can be.

    I already know how risky life can be. If you've ever watched a friend drown in a pool or die from opioids, you do too.

    No mention that for the layman understanding what .65 actually means is very helpful, and not another sentence devoted to that.
     
  14. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Any number of possible reasons and scenarios, but basically because the act gives them pleasure.

    And it is addicting, so there's that.
     
  15. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Granted this is months old, but I doubt its changed a lot in the grand scheme.

    "France only records Covid-19 fatalities in hospitals, Spain does not include unconfirmed cases in senior homes, and the Netherlands only tests hospitalized patients"

    ...

    "But epidemiology experts warn that governments are not tracking coronavirus deaths properly. In Spain, for instance, deaths of untested people in private homes and senior residences are not being included, say regional officials.

    And then there is the added problem of determining the true number of coronavirus infections. When very few people get tested, as is the case in Spain due to a shortage of testing kits, the percentage of deaths over total infections comes out higher, leading to elevated fatality rates."

    https://english.elpais.com/society/...es-each-country-count-deaths-differently.html

    this slightly newer, seems to indicate that 'most' of the cases arent being counted. I would add- except in the US.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/52311014
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  16. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    It may not be so much a death wish as a desire to give the finger to the ruling political class.
     
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  17. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    Still suicidal. IMO
     
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  18. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Facts have to sneak out of the MSM.

    "Table of coronavirus death count and rate, per state

    States and territories

    Reported deaths
    Deaths, last seven days
    Deaths per 100,000 in population


    New York

    33,561

    77

    172

    New Jersey

    15,843

    32

    178

    California

    9,874

    853

    24

    Massachusetts

    8,659

    79

    125

    Texas

    8,109

    1,406

    27

    Illinois

    7,770

    116

    61

    Florida

    7,750

    1,294

    36

    Data as of August 6, 10:30 a.m. EDT.
    Sources: State officials and NBC News
    Graphic: Jiachuan Wu / NBC News
    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...number-fatalities-compared-confirmed-n1166966 "
     
  19. Rockin'Robin

    Rockin'Robin Banned

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    The majority of Americans support Med4All which would address most health concerns for every American including Covid 19, but that is a subject for another thread. The point is...the pandemic is in fact a crisis and an American tragedy due to the incompetence greed and sociopathy of the ones who had the power to handle it effectively but chose not to.
     
  20. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Uh, what? Quote please. Let's see this in context. The Gates Foundation has pledged some grants in support of some vaccine makers but there isn't a "Gates" vaccine. And pray tell, before the Phase 3 concludes, how does ANYBODY including Bill Gates know how many people will present serious reactions to a vaccine and actually die, if any? Five vaccine candidates have made it all the way to Phase 3 already (Moderna/NIH, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Sinovac, and Sinopharma) and NOBODY has died in any of the phase 1 and 2 trials for all these 5 candidates.

    Fearmongering about vaccines is not a sound public health policy. If you are an anti-vaxxer, please let me know, because up to this point I was enjoying exchanging views with you, but I'd rather not engage with an anti-vaxxer; no point; life is too short to waste time with those people.
     
  21. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Spain had a ferocious 12-week lockdown, tightly enforced, and brought the number of deaths to a trickle. I haven't been following them, but apparently it's going up again, huh?
     
  22. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    Compare the US to other industrial countries on this issue and you will find that the case and death ratios are at least comparable. The virus will take whomever it prefers regardless of legislative agendas. Nature still wins!
     
  23. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Appeal to emotions? Since when is a sound exposition of public health issues (like the calculation of Herd Immunity Threshold, the risks of death and sequelae of a viral disease, the plotting of this to a general population), is an appeal to emotions? Read what you want in my posts but they are very objective.

    As for explaining to a layman what 0.65% IFR actually means in matters of public health, I've done it over and over, but obviously I don't do it every post, or else I'd be a one-trick pony.

    If you want to berate a poster for what the poster is not saying in one specific thread, maybe you should take a look at that poster's posting history, before doing that. I'm at no obligation of repeating forever and ever other points I've made elsewhere.

    As for ever watching someone die, what I'll tell you, without disclosing exactly what I do for a living (which is private information that is nobody's business in an anonymous forum), I'm quite sure that my experience with witnessing death is likely to be about 1,000 times (actually, more than that) more frequent than the average person's.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  24. Rockin'Robin

    Rockin'Robin Banned

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    A complete and utter failure!
     
  25. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, the idea is floating here of this being insignificant as compared to cardiovascular and cancer deaths. Not so. I've quoted the source already, in an earlier post in this thread, but here, the data again:

    1. Heart disease: 269,583 deaths
    2. Cancer: 252,500 deaths (based on 2019 data)
    3. COVID-19 pandemic: 88,217 to 293,381 projected deaths
    4. Stroke: 60,833 deaths
    5. Alzheimer's disease: 50,417 deaths
    6. Drug overdoses: 29,265 deaths
    7. Suicide: 19,583 deaths

    Do consider that this is not over yet and we continue to have a sizable number of daily deaths, so COVID-19 has at least the potential to go above heart disease and cancer, but even if it doesn't, it's still a very sizable 3rd place, already more than double the 4th place (and it's not over yet) so I fail to see how this is being construed as insignificant.
     
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