Turkey Will Leave Nato If Greece Attacks

Hey Turkic Brat! Now I know why Erdogan accused the Greeks of attacking the Turkish research vessel Oruc Reis. This came from a Russia site, but it didn't state any sources:

" While the Greek and Turkish frigates were maneuvering around Oruc Reis, the Greek submarine was passing under the Turkish research vessel Oruc Reis. The exact information about the incident has not been reported, but, apparently, the Greek submarine cut the cables and "they destroyed the equipment,"​

The Oruc Reis did leave immediately. Also Turkey has been sending jets and spy planes over the Greek waters for 2 days now, presumably to find out where the subs are located. So far there have been 3 air battles. Oh well, all that money Greece gave Germany to buy subs might be coming to good use.

 

It does, but Turkey would need to accomplish its goals quickly. Enough of their equipment relies on parts & munitions from the US that it wouldn't take long for them to start seeing their capabilities diminish. Essentially this is a war in the air & on the sea. The land border with mainland Greece is tiny and I suspect fairly easily defended. Turkey might be able to grab some islands & might also take the opportunity to gobble up the rest of Cyprus, thoguh this would dilute its military forces & risk dragging in European nations even more quickly.

In theory Turkey sould do well, though it would be a very high risk venture.

 

It is going to be a Pyrrhic victory, and a short lived one. LOL.

 

Turkey has always been 1 foot in NATO and quite frankly, they would fall into chaos without it, so they can do as they like

 

Lots of people see no further need of NATO. Given the implications of MAD one has to wonder if there ever was.

I sometimes think the UN should put up some kind of "Border Islands" type of thing to administer these areas the world over.

 

The UN are going to be tossed out on their ear... they won't be able to put up anything

 

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer... that's what Turkey is doing with NATO

 

Turkey supports war in Lybia.
Turkey support Palestinian terror.
Turkey does not support the Israeli Arab peace.
Turkey's leader Sultan Erdogan SUCKS

 

I have one question, and it is perhaps the most important question -- Does Russia have a 'position' in this squabble?

It's obvious, of course, that Russia is keenly sensitive to its right to unrestricted sea-lane passage from the Black Sea through the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles to the Mediterranean. Also, it wouldn't exactly 'break Russia's heart' if Turkey left NATO.

Vladimir Putin is by far the most important, most powerful figure in anything that occurs in that part of the world -- certainly not France, not Germany, and not the United States. So, does Putin have "a dog in this fight"...? Everything else is 'window-dressing'....

 

That's true, but not towards Nato. Turkey has fought 16 wars with Russia, and lost every one. It's Russia Erdogan fears and keeps close, and it's why he won't leave Nato. Also if he leaves Nato, then he can't attack Greece because Nato would come to its support. He knows what he's doing.

I like that!

 

Putin tries not to take sides, that way he can have good relations with all countries. If Erdogan makes a false move, or if Erdogan should fall and whoever takes over makes a move that threatens Russia, then the world's in trouble.

I'm sure the last thing Putin wants is to see Turkey in control of the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean. But right now that's Greece's problem and the EU's problem. Russia did say if Greece asks for help, their SU57 jets are available.

 

Turkey has not been an important NATO ally since the Soviet Union collapsed

 

Turkey has never been.
But so does the whole of EU.
Putin is murdering people inside EU at will.
He takes over territory and no one can do anything.
All of EU has no power in the international game. They are completly impotent.
This is why Turkey and Iran seems big, because EU is so small...

 

Correct!

For years I have been saying and warning here in the forum about Erdogan and his domestic and foreign policy and his ambitions. This alleged coup against Erdogan gave him total dictatorial power and what he staged afterwards in his country can be described as the witch hunt.
OK, there was the coup, of course, but it was made so lousy that there is justified suspicion that, with the help of the secret services that he totally controls, he allowed it to pass in such a way that it was not a real threat.

And foreign policy ... you say it: He dreams of a new Ottoman Empire and not only dreams of it, he is about to make it a reality ... step for step.

As for Greece, both have been enemies for around a hundred years and both like each other even less than Trump supporters like China. Both are NATO members and that has led to massive problems several times.
As Jeannette, with whom I rarely agree, has already written, this is about natural gas. On the one hand for a pipeline from Libya to Turkey, which Erdogan wants, but also for natural gas deposits in the Aegean ... and here the Turkish ships move in principle and according to international law in Greek territorial waters where they have no business!
About a month ago it was almost as if it was getting hot ... but here the German Chancellor Merkel was able to prevent another hot conflict ... but Turkey continues to provoke.

The problem is, the Turks are waving their sabers threateningly and Greece has high blood pressure because of this and is swinging the war ax in response!

Greece is currently demanding EU sanctions against Turkey, what is justified and what the EU is starting to discuss and decide. The German Foreign Minister is also trying to mediate between the two today, which in my opinion is not only difficult, but rather a "Mission Impossible".

If the Turks threaten to leave NATO, let them go ... I would even be happy. And not just me ... pretty much everyone has had enough of Erdogan in NATO and the EU.

Only the role of the USA is a mystery to me. Remembering when Erdogan took action against the US-allied Kurds in northern Syria and Erdogan publicly threatened the US with an "Ottoman slap in the face" in front of the cameras if the US supports the Kurds.
To this day, I am amazed that Trump did not openly correct Erdogan and showed him who is the boss in his well-known way, like back then with mad midget Kim in North Korea, because you remember of "my red buzzer is bigger than his"!

 

The EU is a complete joke. They are blackmailed by Turkey for years, do you think Turkey cares what they say ?
The only force that stops Turkey today in the Med is the alliance of Israel Greece and Egypt.

 

Way back when, weren't there voices in the wilderness saying that admitting Turkey into NATO would be a disaster? Vindicated time and again.

 

Not our problem, let them work it out.

 

The EU is not a joke ... but your criticism of how the EU has dealt with Erdogan so far until now is justified and that is much too soft for me too!
The EU has ... if it wants ... a hell of a lot of power over Erdogan! The key word is money ... because Turkey is dependent on funds from the EU and even more, on exports to the EU! If the EU turns off the money tap here and also sanctions exports of Turkey into the EU, it will hurt Erdogan and Turkey very much!
Of course, Erdogan then spits "fire and bile" as usual ... but every time he does that, the money tap has to be turned off a little further and / or the sanctions become even stricter and can be extended to other things too!
And if he wants to leave NATO, then that's the way it is ... and in principle a lot of champagne corks pop in the back rooms in Europe when he does it as it happened in reality also in the EU with the Brexit!

 

We can examine you claim: Russia invaded Ukraine took over Creme, EU responded with the harshest sanctions it could impose. They achieved exactly nothing.
Russia just don't count them.
Likewise, they have zero power over Arduan.
EU has no power and in addition it is impotent.
This is what happens when you let Bureaucrats run you, the most aggressive act you can perform is paper cuts.

 

All well and good ... but there are differences that you do not mention or take into account.

Russia is (gas exports aside) not as dependent on exports to the EU as Turkey is ... and it is also about completely different matters of trade.
Erdogan gets around 5 billion euros from the EU every year for various things (earlier, before Erdogan got mad!) ... Russia does not get anything like that from the EU! Then come also further billions of money from single countries of the EU, often due to NATO issues.

Around 53% of Turkish exports go to the EU ... So sanctions really hurt the Turks!
The Russians are less hurt by the sanctions, because if you take natural gas aside ... which rightly does not fall under the sanctions ... the rest is negligible.

Personally, I am also against the sanctions against Russia because I see them as wrong and unjustified.
Yes I know ... Ukraine and the occupation of Crimea. Sorry, but on closer inspection of the situation, that is not even the slightest reason for sanctions in my opinion ... on the contrary, I can fully understand Russia here.
The Ukraine is an artificial formation of all possible ethnic groups like Yugoslavia once ... and how it turned out in Yugoslavia is known and with a view to Ukraine we have a Dejavu! In Yugoslavia, the West was on the side of separatists such as i.e Koratia, Russia on the side of the central government. In Ukraine it's just the other way around, but otherwise the same issue!
The positions among each other are incompatible and such an artificial structure cannot be governed without dictatorial measures! So a dissolution of Ukraine ... specifically separation of Eastern Ukraine (Donbass) from the rest is OK for me. around 70 to 80% of the population are Russians and they do not want to be ruled by a pro western Kiev, which is not unjustifiably anti-Russian for them. So why to force them to stay Ukraine? No reason for!

And with regard to Crimea, during the Soviet era in the 1950s, for administrative reasons, the Crimea passed from Russia to Ukraine within the USSR. At the time, an end to the USSR was a wish at best in the wetest dreams of the staunchest anti-communists ... but that it would ever happen, no one believed at the time!
In the course of the dissolution of the USSR there was then the greatest nonsense where a constantly drunk Yeltsin and also the USA are not entirely innocent ... what can be described as a serious accident of history: The Crimea remained with the Ukraine and only the city and the port of Sevastopol was something of an enclave of Russia with a status as it once was with Hong Kong.
Over 90% of the population in Crimea are Russians, Sevastopol has always been and is still one of the most important Russian naval bases ... comparable to San Diego in the USA in terms of importance ... and then such nonsense is made! The Crimea should have gone back to Russia!

What ever ... In 2010 there was a gas dispute where the West was once again just as idiotic as it was so often ... and had warned Putin very clearly and unequivocally what would happen when Ukraine is about to become a member of the EU and NATO, or something like that is possible reality. Donbass becomes autonomous and Crimea goes to Russia. Back then, Putin was laughed at behind the scenes ... but that laugh from then should be frozen today.
In short: the occupation of Crimea is justified and legitimate for me!

 

What you wrote is so alien to Vladimir Putin's character. But look, if that's what you're told, who am I to say differently.

MSM​

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It's this way, that way, front and back,

so we can hide our every track,​

and start a-new with our attack

of turning white into a black.- Jeannette​

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Looking at this map, it would make sense for Turkey and Greece to negotiate for Greece to give up some of those islands closest to Turkey, namely Lesbos, Chios, Samos and Rhodos, along with the minor islands, so that each nation has a decent share of land and sea space in the Mediterranean.

Maybe Dumpy should send Jared Kushner in to sue for peace.

 

How about a little reality here. Crimea was a free, democratic and independent nation before it was invaded by Ukrainian forces and occupied by Ukraine in the 1990's. When the fascist coup took over the government in Kiev 6 years ago, the people living in Crimea had no representation, so they declared their independence.

To insure that Crimea wouldn't be invaded again by Ukraine before the people could hold a referendum and free themselves legally, they asked for protection from the Russian troops stationed in Sevastopol. In the referendum they voted to unite with Russia because they feared the junta in Ukraine.

 

Sorry Jeannette ... but this is wrong!
Until the conquest by Catherine the Great, the Crimea was a khanate of the Crimean Tartars and a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire. After that it was part of Russia with a small interruption in the turmoil of the civil war after World War I and in the early days of the USSR until 1954. Nikita Khrushchev incorporated the Crimea in the course of an administrative improvement in the USSR of the Ukraine ... although that had a bad taste, because he was Ukrainian ... but OK.

In the course of the dissolution of the USSR:
On January 20, 1991, 93 percent of the Crimean residents voted in a referendum for the "re-establishment of the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Crimea as a subject of the USSR and a participant in the Union Treaty".
The Supreme Soviet of Ukraine confirmed the establishment of an ASSK in a decision on February 12, 1991, but announced the "re-establishment of the ASSK as part of the Ukrainian SSR". However, an ASSK construct had never previously existed within a Ukrainian SSR, so that the decision was legally flawed. However, it was incorporated into the ASSK constitution on June 6, 1991, and made legally valid.
The Ukrainian SSR then declared itself independent on August 24, 1991 within the existing borders, including the Crimea. In the following referendum on the independence of Ukraine in December 1991, 54 percent of voters in the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Crimea voted “Yes”.

 

So you're saying that 1/2 of Greece's wealth should be given to Turkey? You do realize that there are people living on those islands - like my relatives for instance?

I have a better idea. Since Erdogan feels that their former 'slaves' should know their place (Erdogan's words not mind), and have no voice in the Aegean, maybe the Lausanne Treaty should be discarded and they should return to the WWI Treaty of Sevres. It would serve him right.

Below is the Treaty the allies were working on to break up the Ottoman Empire before Attaturk began his genocidal campaign and began killing all the indigenous Christian inhabitants of the former Byzantine Empire - like for instance the Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians.

As for the other half of Anatolia, it belongs to the Kurds. Syria has never been their homeland, Turkey is.

This is one of the maps the allies were working on in the Treaty of Sevres. Eventually the British, French and Italian parts would have reverted back to their original inhabitants, and that's why Atatturk began killing them all - that is with the exception of the Kurds who were Sunnis. When the Kurds wanted to maintain their own identity, they became a threat, so the Turks began killing them as well.