The inevitable collapse of a democratic society!

Alexander Tytler had this figured out a long time ago, defining the 7 stages every democratic society progresses through. We are on the border between apathy and bondage. It will get worse. As soon as a society learns they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury, they are doomed. Good thing we don't do that!

 

Nothing is certain, including my statement that nothing is certain

 

Fortunately, the USA is not a Democracy

 

Democracy has been fun, but the trade off is yuge.

 

Ok ... I am not an American and I know that your Americans very often have a completely different and opposite mind, opinion and point of view to what we have in Europe about issues.

But let's be honest now ... somehow it's quite ridiculous and hypocritical for us in Europe what comes from right wingers like now with you.
Eternal this strange distrust of your own government ...
Eternal this ridiculous justification of the gun law, to be able to defend oneself against one's own government if necessary ...
Eternal grumbling about the taxes you have to pay like everyone else in his country ...
Eternal this complaint the Federal state has too much police and other power over the citizens ...

Do you ultimately want anarchy instead of democracy? From what income, if not from taxes, should the state pay for everything that you also think it should pay ... seriously, again the nonsense that the US government should gamble on Wall Street for it?

I know it's all your internal business and not mine ... and I'm definitely not meddling in it, precisely because it's not my country but yours.
But I just wanted to pass on the opinion and point of view from beyond your borders ... because such and other things in the USA appear for most foreigners, let's say politely, quite strange and incomprehensible.

 

When the folks who want us to pay more start explaining how much will be enough, then I'll stop presuming they want to eventually take it all. As it is, trends do not suggest a maximum ultimate tax rate lower than 100%, which is not different from slavery.

Ppl don't trust our govt because of how embedded international corporate interests are in its workings. By and large, those corporate interests have neither The People's liberty nor their prosperity as concerns.

As far as the 2A goes, well I forget who said it, but 'an armed man does not make a good slave.'

 

Because our education system is crap, and because some of our cultures (like the culture of racism) are perverted, brainwashing a lot of us is really easy.

Just as an aside, did you notice how nicely this thread dovetails with Putin's propaganda.

So it's not just strange and incomprehensible, it's batsh*t crazy.

 

There are of course many cultural and other differences between our countries, which then cause mutual incomprehension. For example, your gun law is seen by the majority at us as dangerous for citizens and public safety etc. ... while I had learned here in this forum that you in the US, conversely, see our sharp gun law as dangerous for the possible oppression of citizens by the state.
A discussion about it ultimately leads to no result, because only opposing opinions and arguments collide ...
But I would like to note that it is totally ridiculous for me if every 18 year old is allowed to simply and legally buy a gun in the USA, but not to drink alcohol, because only from the age of 21 on allowed. Up to now nobody has been able to explain this nonsense why alcohol is more dangerous than a gun is supposed to be in the US ...

It is the same with taxes, because we are not happy either, or even angry with tax increases, but even more with obvious wasted tax money. But we react differently and don't question the whole system ... because we accept that taxes are necessary and if more is well reasoned, we accept mostly.
Example of tax money wasting: The sailing training ship of our Navy had to be repaired at the shipyard, which should cost 11 million EUR. Meanwhile the costs are well over 100 million euros, for which several new sailing training ships can be built. That was a scandal and the protest cost various high-ranking and responsible people their jobs!

 

Let's put it this way ... your education system is different to us and I don't want to evaluate whether it is good or bad, nor rate it is better or worse as ours, because I lack the necessary information and facts.
But what is strange ... and I know that for professional reasons in my job ... is the fact that an engineering degree is not the same for you and it depends on whether you study engineering at one of the large and well-known universities or not. If done at a "lesser known small university", then this engineering status and level of education is only seen in the USA as what corresponds to a master's degree in the corresponding craft. I find that remarkable and strange ... and this is not at us given this way!

 

So we don't vote for POTUS, or other positions?

 

I am not saying now that the US is a dictatorship, and neither do I think so ...
But in general, just because a president is elected by the people does not mean that it is a democracy. Many dictators in this world also call themselves presidents and hold elections by the people from time to time ... but no one with any sense will call these elections democratic.

 

Isn't the main problem with democracy that it divides the country and pushes people into opposing camps?

I suspected democracy 'ends' when one party does such a good job that people keep voting them in

 

I agree we are in collapse, but this country has not been a democracy for decades at least.

We are an oligarchy with fascist qualities.

 

China just unleashed a deadly pandemic and you are worried about Putin?

 

Conflating phony elections with actual elections is intellectually dishonest. Down playing the value of freedom is one of the biggest tricks of communism along with pretending government can do a good job of managing people's lives.

The American system has lifted more people out of poverty than anything in history. So freedom and capitalism works and works well. The proof is in the pudding. The problem is when society values decline and people want the government to take care of them in exchange of giving up their freedom. This has been the case throughout history.

 

I guess once you get hold of a lie, you never give it up.

 

Alcohol can stunt/reduce the creation of new synapses in the human brain, even at a responsible level of consumption. At 18, the average human is still in the final stage of 'childhood' brain developement. At 21, the average human brain is fully developed and in far less danger of being stunted by responsible levels of alcohol consumption.

At least, thats the theory. I agree with you though- it should be legal for any legal adult to make that decision and take that risk after they've been properly informed of it.

The difference between guns and alcohol is that while alcohol is potentially dangerous to the young even when used responsibly, guns are only ever dangerous if used irresponsibly or if intentionally misused.

 

I've heard that in Germany 16yr olds can drink beer in bars (?), if so that's certainly "cultural". But one thing rubs me damned raw, 18yr olds can't purchase or legally use alcohol and tobacco, BUT they can for sure enlist in the military and be sent off to die or be mutilated for life in service of the country. So either they become FULL adults at 18 or remain FULLY children until 21.

 

In addition to my last reply (edit time is over), its seems our two governments are agreed on the 18yoa restriction for firearms... Its just that you also have to demonstrate 'trustworthiness, adequacy, expertise and need'. Which are another way of saying that your govt can simply say 'no' for literally any reason it wants too.

A number of criteria must be met before a firearms ownership license is issued:

• age 18 years (§ 4 WaffG)
• trustworthiness (§ 5 WaffG)
• personal adequacy (§ 6 WaffG)
• expert knowledge (§ 7 WaffG) and
• necessity (§ 8 WaffG).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_in_Germany

Perhaps your govt has demonstrated to your people a 'trustworthiness, adequacy and expertise' that it can permit gun laws via that same criteria in good faith with reason and objectivity. Ours has not. Our govt is more like a petulant child that will hamfistedly run amok with any power we grant it.

 

Im somewhat conflicted on that issue. I agree with you on a philosophical level- all legal adults should have the same rights regardless of age. However, it does make scientific sense to restrict alcohol and even tobacco to a more advanced age (read: more complete level of physical developement).

As far as the military goes, Im torn there as well. The same human brain developement progress that makes alcohol (and tobacco) more dangerous at 18 than 21 makes 18yo's not only better quipped to more efficiently learn combat skills, but also makes them easier to mold into the mindset of conformity and subordination that are critical for unit cohesion and overall military function. Which can be both great and terrible...

 

Are you saying Covid 19 did not originate in China?

 

So far all correct as the brief summary of our gun law concerns. That is exactly what makes it difficult to get a license for a gun ... or in other words: Our gun law is so sharp.
I just want to add that this also applies to the type of weapon itself. There are various weapons that are generally allowed in the USA or at least in various states, but are completely forbidden in our country.
Also ... finally mentioned ... there are very strict laws in Germany on how weapons and ammunition are to be stored and these are also randomly checked by the authorities. The 9 mm ready to fire in the drawer of the bedside table for emergencies is forbidden with us ... and woe you have when such a check of authorities is given. Your gun license will be terminated then...

Now was the difference between our governments and the way the people looked at it ... well ...

In general, the US has a much greater mistrust of the population ... especially the politically more right-wing population ... of their own direction than we do. Of course, we also have a critical approach, but with us it is nowhere near as far-reaching or deep-seated as it is with you.

 

Strange response from someone that recently uses the World Socialist Web Site as an OP source. Glad to see we have some common interests. Keep up the good work!!!

 

Sure ... but if the brain of an age 18 is not proper enough developed for drinking alcohol in matter of the danger and so on ... it is in my oponion same way not enough developed for getting a potential deady weapon = gun.

Sure ... many things are potentiel deadly too and and a black belt of whatever martial art kills someone with pretty much anything they can get their hands on.
Only a gun is designed for only one thing: to fire a projectile or several projectiles aftern another at a targeted target ... whether it is a target sign in shooting sport, an animal on the hunt or another human. Everything else is primarily designed for something else, but can also be used as a deadly weapon.
Of course there are other pure weapons too, like. e.g. a sword, a bow or a spear and others ... only the bottom line is that they are less dangerous than a gun in terms of long-range weapon and rate of fire, etc. Any knife with a blade length of 10 cm is also prohibited in public at us for example...

 

It is funny that most people in this country miss the fact that we are a Republic and not a Democracy. Well, to be factual, we are a Democratic Republic. That is because our current form of government falls under the heading as a Representative Democracy as well as that of a Republic.

What makes us a Republic is that we have a Constitution. Democracy because we elect our officials. Our President is elected through the will of the people through the Electoral College. Yet, the President's authority come from the US Constitution and the Congress. In that the Congress writes and passes the laws, and the President ensures that they are enforced. Of course the Constitution also mediates that process by giving the President veto power, and requiring a 2/3rd's to override the veto, Because the legislative branch are elected to represent a single district within the state, that make this country a Representative Democracy. Put it all together, and you have a Democrat Republic.

Alexander Tytler was speaking to that of a direct democracy and not that of a Democratic Republic. History has shown us that Republics can survive for more then a thousand years. The Republic of Venice lasted for 1100 yeas, and the Roman Republic lasted for 482 years. The US at 244 years old is just getting started. All we have to do is defeat the Socialists, Communists and Anarchists. As well has hold the rest of the world at bay. We have done this for 244 years. I do believe we can continue to do it going forward.