End the Scourge of White Supremacy

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by George Bailey, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    False.
     
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  2. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    The London Recruits group is a communist group that fought against South Africa's systemic racism called apartheid, and it applies the same method to fight against Trump's America. But they are wrong to presume that there is still institutional racism in America to keep blacks down. White supremacy backed by laws was made illegal back in the 1960s. What is left in America is individual racists who espouse such an ideology which belongs to a bygone era and individual forms of racial discrimination.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    What DOES exist in the US is poverty rates that are double, and incarceration rates - among blacks - that are five times those for whites.

    Not "systemic racism"?

    I'll pass on that question, but I will confirm that a dysfunctional economic system IS responsible.

    Fact is a functional economic system offers everyone above poverty employment. Full stop.

    Your economic orthodoxy has real unemployment - U6 plus those who have given up looking for work - built into it, see NAIRU.

    If you haven't heard of alternative approaches by now, you are not paying attention.
     
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  4. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    I don't feel supreme.
     
  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    But you ARE complicit in a system that accepts involuntary unemployment and below poverty-level wage rates.
     
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  6. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    No economic system will guarantee 100% employment or 100% prosperity, just as no legal system will guarantee a 0% crime rate. To call out someone for complicity, you need to show that a better system exists. All you seem to be doing is pointing out flaws without offering solutions.
     
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  7. bubbabgone

    bubbabgone Active Member

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    Hey ... remember the good old days when condemning an entire race was the definition of racism? Ah the memories.
     
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  8. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    OK, here's why you are complicit in higher poverty and incarceration rates among blacks, as well in complacence with the existence of poverty in general. You say:

    because you are indoctrinated into believing free markets are the ONLY economic system for a 'free' people.

    Sheer indoctrination.

    In fact, a sovereign currency-issuing government - the public sector - COULD order treasury and reserve bank to change the numbers in peoples' bank accounts. provided the goods and services and productive capacity of the economy exist to enable this digital money (which is what money mostly is these days) to be spent without causing inflation.

    For example, at the start of this present pandemic, the government should have told everyone to stay home, and ordered treasury and reserve bank to pay everyone's essential living expenses for the duration of the pandemic (food, housing costs. utilities), using public money ie debt free money in contrast to the debt money that is created in private banks in our wholly free market system. 200,000 people would still be alive.

    Now of course, Powell is trying to hide the truth about money creation by keeping interest rates at zero, so that the government doesn't actually go broke carrying the extra $4 trillion (or whatever) in debt it accumulated as a result of the pandemic.

    Now MMT describes how our present highly productive economies CAN guarantee real full employment including at a minimum an above poverty wage structure.

    In other words, your indoctrination denies the possibility of government planning in the distribution side of the economy to deal with specific social problems, like unemployment, while at the same time maintaining a free market system for the production side of the economy.

    Quite so, but this is a different issue to the macroeconomic matters discussed above, and therefore is irrelevant.

    ie, while poverty doesn't guarantee any given individual will turn to crime, poverty and its associated demoralisation is certainly a factor in observed crime rates in a society.

    Solution offered. Now you just have to demand that Powell stops hiding behind his free market ideology, and tells us the truth about money creation.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2019/03/05/mmt-sense-or-nonsense/#1f0584bf5852
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  9. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

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    As it happens economically I am a communist; the workers should own the means of production.

    Show a single case where increasing the money supply did not raise inflation.

    The money to pay everyone's living expenses would come from their taxes. The gov't is already in huge debt. Where would this cash come from?

    So, you negate your previous point. Thanx.

    No economy has achieved this to date.

    This is actually a part of communism.


    Agreed.

    I could not open your link, and so did not see your solution. Could you send it again please?
     
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    (The link works here).

    Try this:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2019/03/05/mmt-sense-or-nonsense/#74aa14f35852

    or the above again:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2019/03/05/mmt-sense-or-nonsense/#4ace1b7c5852

    You may be capable of learning something from professor Harvey's article, since you claim to be "a communist economically", and hence not necessarily wedded to orthodox mythology championed by the likes of the nation's chief banker, Powell, about how money is created.

    But you are certainly presently so indoctrinated, as evidenced by your remark:

    ....so I won't reply to the rest of your post at this stage, except to your comment:


    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=45871

    There is no limit to government debt issuance – if you have your own currency

    "What these monetary operations really mean is that the Japanese government is spending by using credits created by the Bank of Japan, whatever else the accounting structures might lead one to believe.

    Yes, the Bank of Japan is purchasing the government bonds in the secondary markets rather than in the primary issue.

    But that doesn’t rescue the mainstream case (ie orthodox economic mythology).

    It really is of no consequence that they are waiting for the bond dealers to make the market in the primary issuance phase and then hoover up all the debt next ‘day’.

    With inflation low and stable, these dynamics surely put paid to the various myths that a currency-issuing government can run out of money and that central bank credits to facilitate government spending lead to
    hyperinflation".

    And Japan's national (public) debt is 240% of GDP - double that of the US, with similar interest, inflation and unemployment rates.

     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  11. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    Can systemic racism be proved:
     
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  12. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    "legal elites will tell you that the administration of justice in America is systemically racist".

    And not entirely without foundation, because they are incarcerating blacks at five times the rates of whites!

    But of course most of the legal profession has no understanding of macroeconomics beyond the orthodoxy accepted by the general population as well as by the nation's top banker, Jerome Powell, and so they have little insight as to WHY they are incarcerating blacks at that higher rate, beyond an appeal to "racism"

    It's really quite simple.

    Economic orthodoxy requires a level of un/underemployment to control inflation, in an entirely free market system in which creation of money is confined to the private sector* (see NAIRU). The worst affected groups are naturally the most disadvantaged, which in the US is (proportionally) the black population.

    *But heterodoxy tells us money can also be created in the public sector, provided the available resources and productive capacity exist to absorb the extra (public) spending (to avoid inflation). So it's really a matter of political choice, not some ideological, unchangeable "truth".

    Now, real full employment requires a government offer - as employer of last resort - of an above poverty job to anyone who wants one. (See MMT)

    The legal profession are content with the status quo and don't want to know, because large swathes of that profession would become unnecessary, as poverty and crime rates fell.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  13. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Assuming your statistics are correct, they do not in any way demonstrate that the arenas in question are systemically racist.
    Assuming your statistics are correct,. they do not demonstrate dysfunction in our economic system.
    There is no rational basis for your standard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Like I said to another poster, I'm willing to stay out of the contentious debate re "systemic racism".

    Oh god...your nation is being torn apart by the economic dysfunction that maintains generational unemployment and poverty, and you blithely make such a statement.

    (BLM is supported by many white people, as well as blacks. Trump's solution to the protests based on economic dysfunction evidenced by generational unemployment and poverty ....is to shoot the rioters, the typical right wing fascist response to riots based on economic disadvantage).

    Sure there is. Fact: sovereign currency issuing government COULD create money for social spending, eg to offer a guarantee of an above poverty job, alongside the current orthodox money creation in private sector free markets - which mandates a level of unemployment to control inflation (see NAIRU).

    Government - with a treasury and central bank - neither needs to tax or borrow from the private sector, to achieve public spending.

    The issue is ensuring total spending in the economy - whether public or private spending - does not exceed available resources and productive capacity of the economy which is the real cause inflation, not an increase in the money supply per se. This can be achieved, inter alia, by measurement of firms productive capacities and inventories, manageable by government in our modern IT enabled economies.

    Your complacency IS the problem...meanwhile be warned: blind ideology and partisanship are definitely capable of tearing society apart.
     
  15. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Restating your premise does not support your premise.
    Why do you believe all this demonstrates that a "functional" economy, by definition, "offers everyone above poverty employment."
    Further, what about an economy that does not "offer everyone above poverty employment." make it inherently dysfunctional?
     
  16. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I understand your world view renders understanding of the issues difficult. Self interest above community well-being, in the name of "personal freedom" is your chief concern. Civil war? No problem, ......you are protected by the 2nd amendment*, in your estimation.

    * designed to protect a frontier society against marauding natives...but now claimed by you as a defense against your fellow citizens...

    Because access to above poverty employment is a necessity for an independent and fulfilling existence, as recognised eg in the UNUDHR article 23 (which admittedly you no doubt despise, given your apparent indifference to community well-being).

    Article 23: "Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment. Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work".

    Humans react badly to morale destroying conditions. Social chaos is the likely result; which by definition is a dysfunctional social and economic state.

    [I do feel sorry for Marie A. ; despite her carelessness - "let them eat cake" - I don't think she deserved her terrible fate....but there you go....]
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  17. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    But you don't understand that re-stating you premise does not support your premise?
    :lol:
    You've entertained me enough,. Thanks.
     
  18. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Whereas you present me with a good case study in ideological blindness.

    [And I suspect my straying into 2nd amendment territory might be less than entertaining for you....)

    Of course you have to bail out of the debate; in your case, rationality is over-ruled by instinct.

    Fortunately most of us accept rule of law above self-interested instinct, as a basis of social discourse. (But even so, the UN is still struggling to achieve its goal of well-ordered international relations because instinct in individuals still drives a strong desire for personal sovereignty...which is incompatible with an international rules based system).

    Note: in psychiatry, a delusion is defined as a fixed false belief that is not amenable to evidence.

    1. Widespread rioting in the streets in the US, following an unlawful killing of a black man by police.

    2. Attracting a world wide following, under the BLM banner supported by many people of ALL races.

    3. Generational poverty, unemployment and incarceration rates (and the consequent demoralisation), higher among blacks in the US (and eg, Australia), an important factor in the unrest noted above.

    All considered to be irrelevant for an examination of the topic (ie, postulated 'white supremacy') , by you.

    So while I have entertained you, I have learnt from your posts more about the human condition, and how the instinct for self-preservation can destroy the possibility of a well-ordered community.

    Others might also be taking note.

    Meantime conservatives think it's OK to buy elections in a democracy (confirmed by a conservative SC allowing wealthy individuals - incognito - to donate unlimited amounts, most certainly a benefit to the Right, given the role of self-interest in voting).

    It will be intriguing to see the effect of a 6-3 conservative majority SC on the upcoming election results.

    And as for getting rid of the generational poverty noted above, I will restate my solution here, in case Joe Biden is looking (....):

    Note: money has value to the individual citizen who must earn it and pay his expenses with it.

    But money is free for the sovereign currency issuing government, for whom the constraint is available real resources and the productive capacity of the nation.


    Fact: sovereign currency issuing governments can create money for social spending, eg to offer a guarantee of an above poverty job, alongside the current orthodox money creation in private sector free markets - which mandates a level of unemployment to control inflation (see NAIRU).

    Government - with a treasury and central bank - neither needs to tax or borrow from the private sector, to achieve public spending.

    The issue is ensuring total spending in the economy - whether public or private spending - does not exceed available resources and productive capacity of the economy which is the real cause of inflation, not an increase in the money supply per se. This can be achieved, inter alia, by measurement of firms productive capacities and inventories, manageable by government in our modern IT enabled economies.


    Important, because TOG 6 believes elimination of generational poverty will negatively impact on his own prosperity....
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  19. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You've entertained me enough. Thanks.
     
  20. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    You already said that; I accept your withdrawal as your concession of the debate.

    As I said, my post was directed to others interested in the issues, and the conclusions we can draw from your response.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  21. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Of course you do.

    Pro tip:
    When your posts start with...
    "I understand your world view renders understanding of the issues difficult..."
    "Whereas you present me with a good case study in ideological blindness..."
    ... it demonstrates a comprehensive absence of intent to have an honest, useful debate.

    You've entertained me enough. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
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  22. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever asked anyone to touch their hair:
     
  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Not an "absence of intent on my part to have an honest useful debate", but perhaps some irritation on my part with your inane repetitive responses to my extensive post #1068 (and earlier) to AVOID debate, namely:

    "But you don't understand that re-stating you premise does not support your premise?"

    Whereas another poster here HAS engaged the debate....

    So what?
    I'm not here to entertain you; and there ARE others interested in debate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  24. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Doing the rounds on twitter at present: more Right Wing confusion re systemic racism and "white supremacy":
    (I'm not claiming the Left possesses total clarity on the issues...)

    https://americanmind.org/features/ending-the-blm-revolution/the-riot-party/

    The Riot Party
    Edward J. Erler

    "America’s present crisis is driven in large part by the Left’s rejection of the rule of law. Those in charge of the riots are not merely blackmailing their fellow citizens on particular issues like defunding the police. Rather, they seek to overthrow the electoral process itself."

    Actually I heard Biden specifically say last night that "mob violence is not acceptable", so he obviously does accept rule of law.

    (btw, individuals, as individuals, always have the capacity to behave badly; and rule of law exists, inter alia, to sanction such criminality.
    But generally groups require a mutually accepted 'cause', which they express in protests leading to rioting if the cause has manifestly remained unaddressed.

    The Right of course seek to reject the legitimacy of any such (minority) disgruntlement that might lead to protests, saying everyone has equality before the law.

    OTOH, I have already commented on the failure of both sides of politics to deal with high persistent unemployment, poverty, and incarceration rates among blacks, which stands to reason (eg the effect of demoralisation) is a factor behind protests turning into riots.

    So, not only do the Right deny the existence of "systemic racism" (which might be successfully argued because the
    legal impediments to equality before the law have largely been removed), they also argue poverty, unemployment and incarceration rates prevalent in one group are not related to systemic exclusion to above-poverty employment.

    Why systemic?

    Well for one thing, neoliberal free markets expressly mandate the so called NAIRU - non accelerating inflation rate of employment - as a built in means of managing inflation. [It's like a horrible neoliberal/neo-Keynesian macroeconomic game of musical chairs: when the music stops, someone must miss out on a chair].

    Gosh...and I have only progressed as far as critiquing Erler's first sentence! Pushing on...

    "those in charge of the riots...."

    Obviously these protests - and riots - as often as not arise spontaneously, ignited by a specific incident eg unlawful police killing, (or failure to prosecute same), so no-one is in charge.

    Also note: When private citizens are armed to the teeth, police have to shoot first and talk after...it's the Wild West out there.

    So when the guy who thought police who busted down his door were intruders and fired the first shot, the police reacted by firing randomly, leading to the death of an innocent black woman. What are the chances of this sort of bungled police operation happening in a middle-class white suburb?

    "....not merely blackmailing their fellow citizens... "

    Riots have nothing to do with blackmail, and everything to do with uncontrolled anger.

    "....on particular issues like defunding the police..."


    Nice red herring there; it's bad behaviour by police, which has some quarters (erroneously) calling for their defunding.
    (It would more useful to understand the reasons for the bad behaviour of police; eg obviously the poor sod who began firing randomly in confined quarters, shooting an innocent Breonna Taylor, was in a terrible situation).

    "Rather, they seek to overthrow the electoral process itself."

    So....being involved in a riot means you want to overthrow the electoral process....?

    Wanting to change economic circumstances, and protesting the status quo, is NOT equivalent to "wanting to overthrow the electoral process", though it no doubt denotes a desire to change the government.

    That's Erler's first paragraph dismissed....

    Perhaps it was only designed to be read in a RW echo chamber...











     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  25. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. In toto.

    You've entertained me enough. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020

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