Don’t weep for Sweden; it is now one of least infected countries

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by phoenyx, Sep 15, 2020.

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  1. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One of the main points of this particular thread is that no one knows whether Sweden's strategy is a failure or a success until a few months from now when countries go through a second wave in the Fall/Winter months. They could come out looking brilliant, average, or a failure. Their people seem a lot happier and less stressed out though, since restrictions were voluntary. There's a lot to be said for freedom, whether you like it or not.
     
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  2. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I guess they complied. They just complied with the recommendation to NOT wear masks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/3148de6c-3b33-42d3-8cf6-d0e4263cea82
     
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  3. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    You’re the one who keeps bringing the subject up. :)
     
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  4. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    You're arguing we should kill a million more people, when we could kill more than a million less.

    Not my kind of math..
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  5. StillBlue

    StillBlue Well-Known Member

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    All of the actions of social distancing were left intact including mandatory wearing of masks.
    Also, his ruling just means a little re-wording is required not that the rules were entirely unjustified.
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are forgetting the reason for lockdowns. The threat of health services being overwhelmed which is what was happening in Italy and Spain. Sweden said right at the beginning that it had no concerns about its health services being overwhelmed and how it acted afterwards will tell why. When hearing of someone who was old - trying to remember the rest but I think it included those with some co morbidities and those with drink and drug problems, the orders were to give them the death cocktail. Sweden ended up with considerably more deaths than other countries in the area but could be questioned whether its euthenacia, done without the agreement of those receiving it was acceptable. I would say no.

    The other thing is that we did not know enough about it at that time to know how many people would die and we didn't know at that time that possibly as many as one third of those who catch this disease look like they might have on going problems.

    However the reason for the lockdowns was not to save lives but to stop hospitals being overwhelmed and Sweden was able to do that because they decided to euthanaise vulnerable people who became infected rather than let them take up space in their hospitals. Obviously some if not many of those would have survived.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  7. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We've know since January that Covid enters mucus membranes, including the eyes.


    "Doctor believes he contracted COVID through his eyes
    Peking University respiratory specialist Wang Guangfa believes he contracted COVID-19 while not wearing eye protection when he treated patients at health clinics in China. Medical officials, though, say while this is possible, it may be unlikely.

    Wang reported that his left eye became inflamed afterward, followed by a fever and a buildup of mucous in his nose and throat. He subsequently was diagnosed with the new coronavirus.

    According to the South China Morning Post, Wang thinks the virus entered his left eye because he wasn’t wearing protective eyewear.

    Glasses may offer some protection from coronavirus transmission
    The American Academy of Ophthalmology recommends contact lens wearers switch to glasses temporarily as a way to reduce their risk of contracting the virus that causes COVID-19, the respiratory disease that can be fatal.

    Contact lens wearers touch their eyes more often than people wearing glasses, the ophthalmology group says.

    The American Optometric Association, though, says contact lenses are safe as long as the wearer follows directions for lens care.

    Glasses and sunglasses don't offer a complete barrier from respiratory droplets sprayed in your direction. Safety glasses, which protect the exposed sides and the area around your eyes may offer better protection, health care experts say.

    WHO specifically recommends safety glasses for people who will be providing regular care for people with COVID-19."


    https://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/coronavirus-and-your-eyes/
     
  8. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    The U.K. officially went into lockdown on March 23rd, back when there were actually very few deaths per million. Sweden had no lockdown. Let's take a look at how they both fared, starting from March 23rd:
    Screen Shot 2020-09-18 at 6.16.55 AM.png


    So basically, lockdown was started when almost no one was actually dying from Covid 19 in the U.K. at the time, Sweden was actually doing slightly worse than the U.K. After Lockdown, the U.K. started doing worse than Sweden and that trend has continued.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  9. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh yeah. Quote me arguing that we should kill a million more people. :rolleyes: What is your strategy to "kill more than a million less"??? That doesn't even make any sense.

    The thread is about Sweden's strategy to have one sustained curve instead of a 1st and 2nd wave. After cold/flu/Covid season we'll know if the strategy was better, worse or essentially the same as countries who tried to shut down as many people as possible.
     
  10. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    I should probably say at this point that I am actually left wing and would definitely prefer Biden over Trump. I personally think that those who benefit the most from the current scare tactics are not democrats, but pharmaceutical companies, particularly those who make vaccines, and the organizations they fund such as the World Health Organization. The Global Research news site has actually had an article on the WHO translated from a french article, long before the Covid 19 pandemic- it focused on the "pandemic" of 2009- the H1N1 virus. In July, they decided to point it out again, as what they had to say on the organization is of paramount importance at this point in time. Here's an interesting excerpt:
    **
    The WHO [OMS in French] is the World Health Organisation. ‘WHO’ in English – and that’s much more appropriate. WHO: who is it really?

    Would the world be getting along any better without this outfit, which is in theory such a good idea? Would we be in better health?

    The question is as serious as it is relevant.

    Though even one death is one too many, compared with the alarmist forecasts from this professional organisation that were foisted on all the ministries of health the world over, one could say that the H1N1 viral pandemic, version 2009, has so far produced not much more than a mouse.

    But what a fabulous show for the media!

    What a brilliantly organized panic!

    How many millions of euros spent, and best of all, what worrying rumours, about the health risks linked this time to the vaccination, which might not even work!

    [snip]

    The spotless reputation of the WHO was already besmirched by a book that came out in 1997, Le OMS : Bateau ivre de la santé publique [The WHO, the drunken sailor of public health], ed. L’Harmattan, by Bertrand Deveaud, a journalist, and Bertrand Lemennicier, professor of economics, who had spent two years making enquiries throughout the world and consulting numerous official and confidential reports. Two medical journals well-respected by the profession had already sown doubts as to the integrity and the infallibility of the WHO, The British Medical Journal (BMJ) in regard to the management of the bird flu in 2005, and The Lancet (3), which described the WHO as an institution that was corrupt and on its last legs.

    I leave you to ponder awhile these phrases, reported by the journalist Sylvie Simon in one of her articles (4), particularly the passages in bold (my emphasis):

    Doctors Andrew Oxman and Atle Fretheim, from the Norwegian Knowledge Centre for the Health Services and Dr John Lavis, from McMaster University in Canada, interviewed the management of the WHO and analysed its various recommendations. Andrew Oxman concluded that “it is difficult to evaluate the confidence that one can have in the recommendations of the WHO without knowing how they were prepared.”* (*Obscurity).

    “We know that our credibility is at stake,” admitted Dr Tikki Pang, director of research for the WHO. “The lack of time and the shortage of information and of money can sometimes compromise the work of the WHO.” Some senior officials of the organisation have also admitted that in many cases the proof that was supposed to be the basis of a recommendation did not exist.

    Many testimonies have revealed that when the results don’t match those that the industries and companies are hoping for in order to validate their products, standards are altered and the results manipulated.

    Contrary to any procedure that is genuinely scientific and independent, which should base its conclusions on the verified results of its experiments, it seems that the tendency is to do just the opposite, and that results are adapted to produce the desired conclusions; desired that is by the firms producing the medicines, vaccines, and other products concerned.

    To cite one example:

    Dr Oxman criticized the WHO for having its own quality control methods. In 1999 when its views on the treatment of hypertension were criticised, mainly because of the high price of the medicines recommended without any proof that they were more effective than cheaper ones, the Organisation published some “recommendations for preparing recommendations” which led to a revision of the advice on treating hypertension. (5)​


    Other murky issues have been brought to the surface by courageous researchers: cholesterol and statins (6), mobile telephony, with manipulation of the data on the harmfulness of electromagnetic radiation (7)…and of course, serious doubts are being expressed on the real danger of the 2009 viral H1N1 pandemic, which has enabled the pharmaceutical companies to rake in millions of dollars of profit.

    The bank JP Morgan on Wall Street estimated that, thanks mainly to the pandemic alert issued by the WHO, the pharmaceutical giants, who also finance the work of the ESWI run by Albert Osterhaus, were set to make $7.5-$10 billion profit. [8]

    The ESWI, European Scientific Working group on Influenza, describes itself as “a multidisciplinary group of leaders of opinion on the flu, whose purpose is to fight against the repercussions of a flu epidemic or pandemic”. As its members themselves explain, the ESWI, directed by Osterhaus, is the central pivot “between the WHO in Geneva, the Institut Robert Koch in Berlin and the University of Connecticut in the United States”.

    The most significant thing about the ESWI is that its work is entirely financed by the same pharmaceutical laboratories that are making millions thanks to the pandemic emergency, while it is the pronouncements made by the WHO that compel the governments of the whole world to buy and to stock the vaccines. The ESWI receives funding from the manufacturers and distributors of the H1N1 vaccines, such as Baxter Vaccines, MedImmune, GlaxoSmithKline, Sanofi Pasteur and others, including

    Novartis, who produces the vaccine, and the distributor of Tamiflu, Hofmann-La Roche.(9)​

    **

    Full article: Politics and Corruption at the World Health Organization (WHO)
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  11. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    We went into lockdown when we started getting 1000 cases per day and during the time we did not have enough test kits to measure the real number of cases. Johnson was a fan of herd immunity which was disastrous for the UK and lockdown came too late to stem the rising number of cases
     
  12. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    The issue of cases is a good one, particularly because it brings up the subject of the reliability of the tests themselves. I have found some very interesting articles regarding some of those tests. Here's an excerpt from one of them titled COVID19 PCR Tests are Scientifically Meaningless from Off Guardian:
    **
    Lockdowns and hygienic measures around the world are based on numbers of cases and mortality rates created by the so-called SARS-CoV-2 RT-PCR tests used to identify “positive” patients, whereby “positive” is usually equated with “infected.”

    But looking closely at the facts, the conclusion is that these PCR tests are meaningless as a diagnostic tool to determine an alleged infection by a supposedly new virus called SARS-CoV-2.

    At the media briefing on COVID-19 on March 16, 2020, the WHO Director General Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said:

    "We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test.”

    The message was spread through headlines around the world, for instance by Reuters and the BBC.

    Still on the 3 of May, the moderator of the heute journal — one of the most important news magazines on German television— was passing the mantra of the corona dogma on to his audience with the admonishing words:

    "Test, test, test—that is the credo at the moment, and it is the only way to really understand how much the coronavirus is spreading.”

    This indicates that the belief in the validity of the PCR tests is so strong that it equals a religion that tolerates virtually no contradiction.

    But it is well known that religions are about faith and not about scientific facts. And as Walter Lippmann, the two-time Pulitzer Prize winner and perhaps the most influential journalist of the 20th century said: “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.”

    So to start, it is very remarkable that Kary Mullis himself, the inventor of the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) technology, did not think alike. His invention got him the Nobel prize in chemistry in 1993.

    Unfortunately, Mullis passed away last year at the age of 74, but there is no doubt that the biochemist regarded the PCR as inappropriate to detect a viral infection.

    The reason is that the intended use of the PCR was, and still is, to apply it as a manufacturing technique, being able to replicate DNA sequences millions and billions of times, and not as a diagnostic tool to detect viruses.

    How declaring virus pandemics based on PCR tests can end in disaster was described by Gina Kolata in her 2007 New York Times article Faith in Quick Test Leads to Epidemic That Wasn’t.
    **

    The article continues at length and I really think it's something that people should take a look at.
     
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  13. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    The percentage reliability will be the same whether you do one million tests or a 1000 tests, The UK went into lockdown because of the rapidly increasing number of positive cases at a time when there were not enough test kits to discover the real number of infections (taking into account the percentage reliability). Why have you linked to "off guardian", a well known conspiracy site?
     
  14. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    China is the second-largest funder of the WHO. There is no doubt now that the WHO's Director Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus covered up for China's withholding of information and downplayed knowledge about the severity of the virus and how it spreads for months, not calling a global pandemic until March 12th.

    China corrupted the global response to the virus with assistance from the WHO.

     
  15. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    Other articles well worth the read in my view:
    I can definitely agree with your first point- the main issue is, just how reliable are these tests? The more I've read on them, the less I trust their reliability. As to Off Guardian being a "known conspiracy site", I imagine you are relying on so called "fact checking" web sites. A medical journalist friend of mine named Rosemary Frei who has published articles at Off Guardian decided to do a little investigation on these watchers (I'm alluding to the old line, "Who watches the watchers?") I found that her findings were quite interesting. Another poster here named Bowerbird made a similar accusation but unlike you, he actually included a link to a website named Media Bias/Fact Check, supporting his point of view. Here's what Rosemary had to say on them:
    **
    Media Bias/Fact Check has long been launching bogus attacks. And in addition, the Media Bias/Fact Check website says it has “chosen the IFCN [International Fact Checking Network] as our standard fact-checkers because they all abide by the same rules. This is important, as the standards are high.”

    Note, however, that IFCN is funded by the likes of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (see below).

    [snip]

    At 21:57 in the video, and in this link in the show notes, of The Corbett Report’s June 19 podcast episode exposing the glaring conflicts of interest in the fact-checking industry, host James Corbett reveals that IFCN’s major funders include George Soros-backed organizations and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

    **

    Source: https://off-guardian.org/2020/08/06/fact-checking-a-fact-checker-a-response-to-healthfeedback-org/
     
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  16. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    First of all, there's the issue of test reliability, something which I have begun to have very serious doubts about. Second of all, that's still well below their peak in late June of 1,698 cases in a day:
    Screen Shot 2020-09-18 at 7.35.36 AM.png


    Finally, people get all sorts of infections. The main issue isn't whether someone has been infected with something, but what the consequences are. So while Sweden may be averaging 200 cases a day, which is still -well- below its peak of , it hasn't had over 6 deaths per day attributed to Covid 19 in some time now.
     
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  17. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The longer the virus has circulated, cases up but deaths down, has been an observable trend.
     
  18. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad that you have concerns about the WHO- I think we all should. However, I think the main problem may actually be the panic they've induced and with it, the shutting down of critical thinking on the issue. The media has played up the alleged deadliness of the disease and downplayed the fact that most of the people who have allegedly died or been severely injured from Covid 19 already had serious conditions to begin with. Sweden decided that the thing to do was to focus on protecting those who were most vulnerable and to let the rest of the population make their own calls. Many other countries decided to paralyze their economies to varying degrees, with results that many agree have been quite devastating. Ironically, the devastation that these lockdowns have incurred may well make the problem of Covid 19 and any diseases that come after it that much more severe.

    The WHO and the medical industrial complex have emphasized questionable vaccines as the solution and downplayed keeping ourselves healthy. That's a recipe for disaster. The end game is to have everyone living more and more in bubble type environments, sometimes quite literally:
    The world's strictest school social distancing: Thai kindergartners are sealed in perspex boxes at playtime while masks are mandatory for older kids in fight against coronavirus | Daily Mail

    This is leading to an End Game we can't win. We are destroying the very fabric of our society, trusting avaricious pharmaceutical companies over healthy environments that would allow our own immune systems to take care of things. Unlike other animals, we are a communal society and things such as close proximity to others, and especially touch are crucial, especially for young children. I think some lines from Frank Herbert's Dune novels really hit the nail on the head:
    "What is survival if you do not survive whole? What if you no longer hear the music of life? Memories are not enough unless they call you to noble purpose!
    With whom do you ally? With ... bureaucracy? With a dogmatic sink of your own creation? How will you meet your end?"
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  19. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    Yep. This is especially true in countries that have tested the largest portions of their population, such as Iceland. Global Research commented on this way back in April:
    **
    By all accounts and from the very beginning it was clear that Coronavirus Disease 2019 (Covid-19) was at the very most a bad cold – little more dangerous than the annual flu – but being deliberately hyped to stampede the public into a tangled web of bad policies.

    As early as last month cooler-headed experts warned that hyped death rates spread by politicians, the Western corporate media, other various panic-mongers, and even World Health Organization (WHO) officials would give way to much, much lower death rates as more people were tested, found to have had the virus, and showed little to no symptoms.

    The numbers of infections versus deaths in Iceland where testing has been the most widespread shows a death rate of about 0.5%, though only 5% of the population has been tested. 50% of those tested showed no symptoms at all meaning that many, many more Icelanders likely had the virus, overcame it with ease, and never visited a doctor or hospital to avail themselves for testing or to make into national Covid-19 statistics.

    Another study conducted in the United States by Stanford University found the infection rate was likely 50-85 times higher than reported – meaning the death rate was astronomically lower than reported at around 0.2% to as low as 0.12% – not the 3-4% claimed by the World Health Organization.

    In other words – Covid-19 is no more dangerous or deadly than the annual flu. But it has been hyped as such by Western politicians, the Western corporate media, and even international institutions like WHO – a deliberate deception accompanied by coordinated theater including government briefings with reporters comically spaced out in “fear” of contracting Covid-19.
    **

    Source: https://www.globalresearch.ca/massive-covid-19-hoax/5710137
     
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  20. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with 95% of what you wrote. The 5% is that you've stated twice that Sweden protected its vulnerable. They were heavily criticized for not protecting their elderly early on, and in fact, their head of health admitted he made that mistake. They did correct that, of course, after intense public scrutiny. Other than that point, I agree with what you're writing.

    The WHO started out well but has become beholden to moneyed interests and power over the public health.

    In 1948, the WHO defined health as follows: ‘Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or other physical impairment’. Today, the WHO and many government leaders have the population totally focused on the physical while causing significant damage to the mental and social health of citizens. We should get back to a more holistic 3-legged approach to health as quickly as possible. We can't stand on one leg for much longer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  21. StillBlue

    StillBlue Well-Known Member

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    In a space the size of California with a population less than Metropolitan LA. Based on deaths per day/per million population Sweden only trails Spain in Europe. Not a number to brag about.
     
  22. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And Spain and some other EU countries which had harsh lockdowns are now seeing second-wave spikes, while Sweden appears to have plateaued for now. When people sit isolated in their homes, their immune system does not have to function. All the lockdowns are doing is stretching out the pain over a longer period of time, rather than getting it over with more quickly. This theory will be tested over the next few months after we have an entire year of experience.

    Spain....


    upload_2020-9-18_7-26-20.png
     
  23. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ Sweden treated Wuhan virus just like a flu epidemic. They also make love a lot more over there. They ain't no dummies. :hug::blowkiss:
    ~ Lesh has a mask fetish. Kind of embarrassing actually .. . :please:
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  24. phoenyx

    phoenyx Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious, how did you get that statistic? In any case, it still relies on the diagnostic tests, whose reliability many seriously question. Futhermore, compared to the world daily death rate, I think we can agree that Sweden's daily deaths has gone down a lot more than the world average's. Here's the world's:
    Screen Shot 2020-09-18 at 8.28.37 AM.png

    The peak was on April 17th, but it hasn't gotten that much better. Now compare it to Sweden's:
    Screen Shot 2020-09-18 at 8.29.41 AM.png

    I think we can agree that Sweden's has done a hell of a lot better at reducing their daily death numbers than the world average.
     
  25. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the ratio of cases to deaths does decrease (more cases with a lower death rate) then that would be an argument in favor of the lockdowns in the first wave. Only time will tell.

    Spain is starting to see the spike in deaths following the new increase in cases. If the virus has become less deadly, then we shouldn't see the same mortality rates we saw in March and April.

    upload_2020-9-18_7-31-8.png
     

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