God, Human Free Will, And A Strawberry Ice Cream Cone.

JAG Writes:
How does God simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} often working in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
and controls the external circumstances in such a way
where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

Let me give you one example where you could do that
same thing with your son {assume you have an 8 year
old son}

A Father & Son & A Strawberry Ice Cream Cone , , ,
Let us say that you decide that your 8 year old son will
eat a strawberry ice cream cone this coming Wednesday
around 12 noon.

His favorite flavor is chocolate and strawberry is only his
2nd favorite flavor.

Remember that you are ONLY going to control the external
circumstances and the "outside inducements" -- you are NOT
going to Force your son to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.

~ the external circumstances , , ,
~ the "outside inducements" , , ,

You CAN Control The External Circumstances
And The "Outside Inducements"
{1} On Wednesday morning you make certain that there is no
breakfast available so that your son will be hungry come
lunch time.

{2| You can control the place where you and your son go that
day.

{3} You select a Park Area that has an ice cream stand.

{4} On Tuesday you arrange with the Ice Cream Stand's
owner for him NOT to have any chocolate ice cream available,
and for him to certainly have Strawberry Ice Cream available
when you and your son arrive at the park area at around 12 noon.

{5} When you and your son arrive at the park, your son tells
you he is hungry and wants an ice cream cone.

{6} You take your son to the ice cream stand.

{7} Your son is told there is no chocolate ice cream available.

{8} Your son asks if there is strawberry ice cream available.

{9} Your son is told yes there is strawberry ice cream available.

{10} Your son, now really hungry, and preferring chocolate ice cream,
nonetheless, gladly "settles for" his 2nd favorite strawberry flavor,
and asks for and eats the strawberry ice cream cone.

So?

So your son did EXACTLY what you had planned for him to do
and at the same time you DID NOT violate your son's Free Will.

Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

You did not urge him to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.
You did not say a single word to him about it.
You merely controlled the external circumstances and you
put the "outside inducement" of the strawberry ice cream
cone in front of him -- by making sure that he would be told
that the strawberry ice cram was available for him if he wanted
it.

Your son made a 100% Free Will decision to eat the strawberry
ice cream cone.

_________

That up there is one example of how the Sovereign God can control
the external circumstances and the "outside inducements" in such a
way where men end up doing what he has predetermined them to
do --- while at the same time -- their Free Will is not violated.

_________

I realize that my example and illustration of the "Father & Son & Strawberry
Ice Cream Cone" is not a perfect example or illustration --- but it does succeed
in demonstrating how a Father can control the external circumstances and the
"outside inducements" to bring about a good predetermined plan and at the same
time, NOT violate his son's Free Will.

___________

What is the takeaway point of the OP?
Answer: It demonstrates one way in which God can simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} often working good things in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
and controls the external circumstances in such a way
where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

Let us all strive to make good Free Will choices and trust in
God to help us as we do that and to bring good things into
our lives.

JAG

 

If I am an omnipotent God, I know the kid's final decision - otherwise I'm not an omnipotent God.
I knew what the kids decision was going to be at the very moment of creation, because I am omnipotent and
I designed the kid and because I am omnipotent, I knew all the actions that said was going to take, because I designed the kid.

If not, I am not an omnipotent God - I'm just an advanced genetic engineer.
End of story.

 

God the coercer and the liar, strange things people want from their god!

 

All true.
So what?

This is not the case because all you said above was true.
Again , ,
So what?

No.
Not the end of the story.
You have Free Will and your Free Will choices will, in one sense,
determine your Eternal Destiny , , ,

, , so Your Story continues on , ,

, , and so does the Human Race's Free Will Story , , ,, ,

JAG

 

Sorry dude. If an Omnipotent God designs you, then he designs in every possible aspect of your life - it's that whole omnipotent creator thing. There is
no "free will". There is only fulfilling the omnipotent being's original design.

 

Agreed!

The OP's imaginary god is a manipulative SOB that arranged for the brutal murder of his own son in the most agonizing death possible at that time.

And yet the OP still worships his imaginary god even after figuring out that he is being manipulated by him?

A variation of Stockholm Syndrome perhaps?

 

we are talking about a God that tells fathers to kill their children, then at the last minute sends someone to tell him he was just kidding, ha ha

 

yep, he is either all knowing and knew what he was creating before he created it or he is not all-knowing

 

Certainly with this poster, so brainwashed with his religion is he that he cannot conceive that others do not believe in his imaginary crutch or even that people can have no religion. It quite literally is him, without his god he has nothing, very sad.

 

Incorrect.
Both the , , ,
~ Sovereignty Of God , , ,
and
~ Human Free Will , , ,

, , , are true doctrines and both are taught side by side in the
Holy Bible.

Take for example the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus.

Read this passage from Acts chapter 2 carefully and you will
see clearly both the , , ,

Sovereignty Of God {in bolded red}
and the
Human Free Will Of Men {in bolded blue}

_____________________
Acts 2:21-24
"And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man
accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs,
which God did among you through him, as you yourselves
know. This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate
plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked
men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the
agony of death, because it was impossible for death to
keep its hold on him. Acts 2:21-24
_________________________________________________

The Sovereignty Of God
"This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate
plan and foreknowledge"

The Free Will Of Humans
"and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death
by nailing him to the cross"

Both God's Sovereignty AND Human Free Will are true.
You are incorrect when you say:

"There is no "free will". There is only fulfilling the omnipotent
being's original design."__Daniel Light

JAG


``

 

See my post up there on , , ,

Both the , , ,
~ Sovereignty Of God , , ,
and
~ Human Free Will , , ,

, , , are true doctrines and both are taught side by side in the
Holy Bible.


JAG

 

That is not correct.
It did not happen like that.

Here below is both the , ,

~ HOW it happened
and the and
~ WHY it happened:


God Has A Right To Test Us , , ,
Start quote.
"Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.

Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and
go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain
I will show you.”

Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him
two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the
burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.

On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance.
He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy
go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his
son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two
of them went on together, 7Isaac spoke up and said to his father
Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb
for the burnt offering?”

Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the
burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham
built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his
son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.

Here Is HOW It Happened , , ,
Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham!
Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him.
Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from
me your son, your only son.”

Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by
its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a
burnt offering instead of his son.

So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide.

And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be
provided.”

Here Is The WHY It Happened , , ,
WHY God Tested Abraham , , ,
The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second
time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because
you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous
as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your
descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,
and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,
because you have obeyed me.”
___Genesis 22:1-18

______________


Abraham was the Bible's Great Man Of Faith in God and God Almighty
made Abraham the Father Of Many Nations and the Father of the three
Abrahamic Faiths -- Christianity, Islam, Judaism.

__________

You are incorrect when you say , , ,

"we are talking about a God that tells fathers to kill their
children, then at the last minute sends someone to tell
him he was just kidding, ha ha"___FreshAir

JAG


``

 

More ranting sermons that NEGATE the stated purpose of this forum which is to engage in Civil Debate rather than the meaningless regurgitation of theist dogma.

 

"God Has A Right To Test Us , , , "

if that God is not all-knowing.... then I guess he would have too

 

either God is all-knowing, or he is not

 

Here is my view.
We are mere men.
We do not have the right to question the God that created us.

There are some things that are "secret things."
Deuteronomy 29:29 says "the secret things belong to God."

God has not seen fit to explain to us how His Sovereignty
and our Human Free Will work together -- but they do.
{We might not could understand His explanations anyway.}

If we love God and are willing to humble ourselves before Him,
then we will not have any intellectual problems with what God
knows or does not know.

We can know that God wanted to "test Abraham" and that God
did test Abraham and that Abraham passed the test with flying
colors. Isn't that enough for us to know.

Anthropomorphic Language , , ,
We also know that God is all knowing yet He presents Himself to
us using anthropomorphic language -- that is to say He presents
Himself sometimes in human terms that we can understand. See
the bolded red below for an example of anthropomorphic language.
"Now I know"___God

________________________________
The Testing Of Abraham , , ,
"Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham!
Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him.
Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from
me your son, your only son.”

Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by
its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a
burnt offering instead of his son.

So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide.

And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be
provided.”
Genesis chapter 22
_______________________________________

Other examples of anthropomorphic language include such
language as , ,
~ the eyes of the Lord
~ the arm of the Lord
~ the Lord came down to see
~ the ears of the Lord
and the , , ,
~ "Now I know" in Genesis 22 where God tested Abraham.

God does not literally have "eyes" or "arms" and God does not
need to "come down to see" -- but we can understand terms
like that --- anthropomorphic language helps us understand
God and how He works.

JAG

``

``

 

This is exactly the moral problem. This is a direct comparison of morality (dont murder people) and blind obedience to power, with the latter being pushed as the right way to go.

Abraham would have been a model nazi soldier. As would anyone who endorses this sort of blind obedience to powerful tyranny.

 

I think another analogy would be Abraham would of flown a plane into the twin towers because his god told him to.
And of course that was why the 9/11 terrorists did so, from their point of view it was a moral act!

 

Yes. And that's a question I ask people pushing what JAG is pushing, and he and they always ignore.

Is there ANYTHING they would question or refuse to do if they were convinced God told them to do it? Anything at all? Rape? Murder? Terrorism? Genocide?

Consider the Bible story of Job. In it God essentially tortures Job with every bad thing imaginable just to see if Job will turn against him or obey,. and Job obeys and refuses to stand up for himself against God, and that's pushed as the right thing to do.

In Islam they actually call themselves slaves to God. And that is the same sort of mentality. God made you, so God can do whatever he wants to you and tell you to do any evil thing and you must do it. Kill your innocent child. Fly a plane into a building. There is no room for moral thought here. Obey the master.

And then these same people, who have just demonstrated a complete confusion of obedience for morality, turn around and ask how people can be moral without a God belief.

 

Yes we do.

 

We have no right to question God.
His ways are often mysterious and He has
the right to "test us" just as He "tested"
Abraham --- because He knows things
that we do not know and can not know.
This is why He is God -- and we are not
God.

Sayeth The Wise Man Solomon , , ,
"As you do not know the path of the wind, or
how the body is formed in a mother's womb,
so you cannot understand the work of
God, the Maker of all things."
Ecclesiastes 11:5

_________

And don't forget Deut. 29:29
"the secret things belong to God"

___________


Bible Verse For Today
"For it is by grace you have been saved,
through faith-and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God."
Ephesians 2:8


``

 

Yes we do.

 

How dare you take away mans right to question?

 

Not only do we have a right to question. We have a moral duty to. You are morally responsible for your own actions. The devil didnt make you do it, and neither did God.

JAG would have us all blindly obey a claimed but unseen authority figure he pretends to speak for, and to never question whatever he tells us this purported authority figure wants us to do.

He insists that we must believe this authority exists and threatens us with eternal torture if we deny him that.

And yet somehow we are the "sinners" in the moral wrong.

 

Imagine a rape victim demanding a rapist stop, and the rapist saying "I know you want it. You just wont admit it. Shhh stop questioning me. This is what you need baby. You're welcome. "