"A good God wouldn't have a Hell"

That's not really true.

I am willing to discuss this a little bit with you, but if you want to get into a deeper detailed discussion, I think we should start a separate thread.

It only describes it in one place like that, and that may be somewhat of an ambiguous translation.

 

if you don't know what hell is, then you can't say any situation on earth is like hell

 

Probably, because we're human. God (in mainstream Christianity at least, which seems to be where you're coming from) is meant to be eternal, all-knowing and all-loving. That would be such a vastly different position as to render any logic or emotions we have irrelevant. I'm not even sure we can fully imagine ourselves in the position of such a different mind-set but if we did, we'd surely reach a very different set of conclusions than we would normally do.

This is one of the sticking points for Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions in general), where there seems to be inconstancies in the depictions and expectation of God, on one hand presented as the unknowable infinite mystery but on the other the interventional and emotional dictatorial leader. It's almost as if whole ranges of stories, beliefs and myths came together over the years for form complex socio-religious structures.

That depends on which of the several depictions of Hell you're talking about for a start. Some Christian concepts of Hell are unquestionably horrific, with torture for all eternity if you didn't believe in God (and refuse to beg for forgiveness at some point) but escape for the most evil people in the world if only they repent on their deathbed. That doesn't mean it isn't real but it also doesn't mean we should ignore how horrific a concept it remains. After all, that's why many Christians put so much effort in to avoiding it and seeking to help others avoid it.

Of course, some other Christians deny the accuracy of that depiction (more of the shifting I mentioned earlier) so exactly what you're talking about could do with clarification too.

 

Asking questions such as this one is in fact based on an assumption that the questioner actually understands what "God" is or would be and then juxtaposing that with human judgment. For "God" to be "God" would mean that such an entity is so vast, so complex that mere human understanding could not apply to any serious analysis. Really, the only fashion for such a humble creature as a human is to apprehend "God" at all would be through some 'divine' provision of direct revelation. In any case, anything less than that is simply hearsay and worth nothing more.

 

That's true enough, in a certain way. It's possible hell could be much much worse, or even unimaginable.

However, I do still believe hell-like situations on earth will be very comparable to hell in the afterlife. The difference might just be the magnitude of suffering, and the exact conditions of suffering.

 

I believe God's sense of judgement is not so different from human righteous judgement that a wise person would not be able to perceive the basics of it.

In fact this may be one of the primary meanings of "Man is created in God's image".

 

Yes, all technically true. But you seem to be piecing that together as if to imply something else.

I'm not going to repeat myself, and part of what you have brought up has already been discussed in this thread.

It's already been explained how none of that is unjust, even though you clearly appear to be presenting it as being so.

 

Why do you think divine justice must involve a lot of suffering?

You don't do any good by making people suffer just to make them suffer. Its not a logical things to do and it doesn't make sense from a cost-benefit analysis.

I'm sorry but that is just dark and you really sound like psychopathic monster. You would torture people for millions of years? And what kinds of monsters would these victims have to be to enjoy watching someone being tortured for millions of years and enjoy that? If someone enjoys that, that is the best reason to put them in hell. I've known some bad people in my life who have done horrible things to me and people I love. Hey, the dark side of me would like them to be tortured for a few hours. But I couldn't stomach any more of that. I'm not calling you a bad person, but I feel like maybe you have a lot of anger and hatred to some people who have wronged you.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. I wonder who said that. He is a smart man. Maybe he is God after all.

You just made your justice system subjective instead of objective. A justice system should have the same punishment for everyone who committed the exact same crime. It should be fair. Having a different level fo punishment depending on the disposition of the victim isn't just or fair at all. No advanced nation administers justice that way.

 

The bible describes hell like that in many many places and in a large variety of ways. I think the bible is clear. But again, I understand if you can't stomach it.

 

It actually doesn't, not if the one who was wronged forgives.

There are going to be some going to Heaven who will never be able enjoy Heaven unless they have the knowledge that justice was done.

There will be others who will not even be able to go to Heaven unless they know justice has been done, and they can let it go.

Heaven isn't merely just a physical place, where we could push everyone into and simply make them all have perfect joy and contentment.

 

I have already voiced my problems with a subjective justice system that is based on the whims of the victims. We have a justice system in the first place to make justice objective and fair and not base it on the anger of people. The bible teaches that everyone should forgive. So we shouldn't base our justice on not forgiving.

Also, I don't see what this obcession is with doing justice? Why give people what the deserve when it doesn't help anyone as much as it hurts. I believe in doing more good than harm. If you are doing more harm than good, then you are an evil God.

 

Okay, let's talk about it. Why don't you choose just two of those verses, and we can discuss them?

 

The first instance for me is the way Jesus suffered for our sins. He suffered by bleeding and by torture. He suffered such intense pain that even him, a God wanted it to end. That says it all.

 

Everyone should forgive, but they may not be able to. Not unless there is suffering.

 

True. But also consider that he was suffering for the sins of multiple people.

And what he suffered was human-inflicted (at least the visible part you are talking about). Humans were doing this to other humans.

Could someone who did to another person what was done to Jesus have to suffer that same thing in Hell? I think we can agree absolutely.

That does not mean everyone is going to suffer that exact same way.

 

The bible says that if you want to get into heaven, you have to forgive. If you can't, you aren't being a good Christian.

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

There are some verses in the bible that are absolutely beautiful. This is one of them. Think of the person you hate the most who has most wronged you. Work on forgiving him.

 

But that human infliction atoned for our sins. Which means it was the right stuff. And he bled for our sins to and felt incredible agony. As a God of course he could handle a lot of pain, and the pain from many people was indescribable. So the punishment for sin is pain and suffering according to the bible.

 

I understand what you mean, but that still does not mean everyone is going to have to suffer that exact type of thing in Hell.

I did not claim there will not be agony in Hell.
It doesn't have to be the type of agony caused by the same exact physical thing.

Yes, but I think you might be taking this too literally, to an absurd level.
I think we could say that was representative of the punishment, the same type of thing.

But I will say this. To those who supported that punishment for crimes in those times, the same type of standard might be applied to them.
So they literally might have to spend some time on a cross in Hell.

 

You know Jesus actually forgave the people who did that to him right? I don't agree with everything Jesus said but I agree with him on this. "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Absolutely incredible words.

I certainly think those people deserved punishment, but I believe it should be constructive punishment that makes the world a better place, not a place with more pain.

 

We do have to suffer that exact type of thing in hell. People who go to hell rejected Christ's atonement. Christ took their punishment. Therefore, they will suffer what he suffered for them since that was their punishment. If I was whipped for someone else's sin, its very obvious what the punishment for that sin is.

 

I understand what you mean, but I don't think it will necessarily be the same punishment, in the sense of that exact same physical thing.

I also think it very likely that Christ actually suffered far more than would be ordinarily physically possible for someone to suffer in that situation. There was probably a supernatural component of suffering at work, in addition to the obvious physical.

Look, I agree with what you stated, but just not necessarily in the extreme literal sense that you seem to be trying to argue.

 

That really is the crux of my argument that hell involves physical torment. It just makes sense to me that when you take someone else's punishment on yourself, that means you suffer that exact same punishment. Jesus even put himself into human form so that he would suffer our punishment like a human would. And then all the rest of the verses describes hell as involving physical pain too which just backs up this interpretation. I can see how people can interpret the bible differently though. I'm not even Christian anyway.

 

And that's why there may have to be some suffering, to enable those people to forgive so they will be able to get into heaven.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you that it will involve "physical torment", but the question is what exactly we mean by that.

I'm not sure that people will suffer things which they did not cause to others.
(At least in the punitive aspect of hell, there may be other inherent aspects to hell)

 

Do you want to name one so we can specifically address it?

It is true that a lot of the very most severe sins involve causing physical pain to others, so it would be natural that these would be used as an example of punishment.