Psaki: Even After Vaccine, You Still Need to Social Distance and Wear Masks

Do you really think that if given that advice, only those who have been vaccinated or recovered will stop wearing a mask?

And what about doing any attempt to reduce the spread of the new strains? Wearing a mask will also reduce the probability of any new strain getting a foothold leading to a quicker exit out of this pandemic

 

mass graves, tent hospitals, government deciding who to care for and who not to, no medicines...

You can't be serious.

 

This is why trump lost.

 

I am serious. We did the best we could do to flatten the curve. We have vaccinations. We have a large portion of the population who have recovered. It's time to open up.

And BTW, we won't be seeing mass graves and tent hospitals drama queen.

 

I do.

Don't worry, there will always be something for you to be afraid of. If a new strain becomes a problem, ie existing antibodies and vaccinations are ineffective in inhibiting spread, we will have to deal with it at that time.

 

Who cares?

 

You're so naive. You think that these people will continue to wear a mask when in stores if they have not been vaccinated or haven't just recovered from the virus

 

We likely won't but we did. Reopening needs to very targeted and gradual.

 

Some of them will, the rest are only wearing bandanas or cloth masks anyway. Those a very ineffective - barely better than nothing at all. FFS this has been going on for a solid year! At some point you just need to accept that your never going to have zero % transmission rates and get the f*** on with LIVING!!! We need ball games, concerts, and festivals. This sh** cannot keep going on.

 

All very well but that has nothing to do with your statement "No need to mask up after the vaccination or recovery" which on the face of it, I agree. Vaccinate about 70% of the adult population will be the time when the wearing of masks should no longer be mandatory in stores

 

I'm glad to hear you agree with the gist of my position. I wish more people did. If we can publicly state that masks can come off and movie theaters can open after x% of the population has been vaccinated I'm sure you would see more people get the shots.

 

Israel opened up fully with the vaccines going and has had little to no issues.

It's time to be human beings again. We are killing people with these lock downs, destroying dreams, and destroying children.

 

I'd hold on to the masks for longer, due to the new variants. What you are saying is defensible (although I wouldn't entirely agree with it anyway) regarding the existing variant in the United States, but it is a lot less true now that we have among us, community transmission of the B.1.1.7 (UK Kent variant), the B.1.351 (South Africa variant), and the P.1 (Brazil Manaus variant). While the first one is quite susceptible to our existing vaccines, the other two are less so, and it seems like the last one is particularly able to re-infect people who had been previously infected by the previous variant.

So, people in Manaus, a city that had reached the herd immunity threshold of 76% of infections with the old variant, got completely overwhelmed by the P.1 which re-infected a bunch of people and killed a bunch of them.

So, hold your horses. Let's give it some time, to understand how these variants will thrive in American soil.

Besides, it's hard to understand why you all get so revved up about masks. I mean, what's the problem? I wear high-performance masks all the time (either N100 or N95 depending on the situation, with an ASTM level 3 on top depending on the situation) and it doesn't bother me at all. You all make it sound like wearing a mask is THE MOST HORRIBLE INVASION AND DESTRUCTION OF ONE'S FREEEEEEEEEDOMS!!!!!

You guys need to get a grip. It's just a benign epidemiological containment device. If people masked up, then the things you are craving (concerts, games, etc.) would resume much sooner.

And sure, bandanas and neck goiters are useless. But by now there ARE readily available high quality masks if people want them, which do make a difference in terms of reducing the odds ration and the relative risk.

Now, you say, "I had it so I don't need to wear a mask as I won't catch it again." Well, not so fast, buddy. If the B.1.351 and/or the P.1 become dominant, chances are that you WILL catch it again, and the second time can actually be worse than the first one, according to some preliminary evidence (still unconfirmed; that's why I'm saying, let's observe the behavior of these variants a bit longer).

I'm not advocating for indefinite mask use. I'm just saying, a bit longer until these variants show what they're capable of. That's prudent.

 

I can't agree with that, doc. It's been long enough.

 

You missed part of my response so I'll repeat it here:

Besides, it's hard to understand why you all get so revved up about masks. I mean, what's the problem? I wear high-performance masks all the time (either N100 or N95 depending on the situation, with an ASTM level 3 on top depending on the situation) and it doesn't bother me at all. You all make it sound like wearing a mask is THE MOST HORRIBLE INVASION AND DESTRUCTION OF ONE'S FREEEEEEEEEDOMS!!!!!

You guys need to get a grip. It's just a benign epidemiological containment device. If people masked up, then the things you are craving (concerts, games, etc.) would resume much sooner.

And sure, bandanas and neck goiters are useless. But by now there ARE readily available high quality masks if people want them, which do make a difference in terms of reducing the odds ratio and the relative risk.

Now, you say, "I had it so I don't need to wear a mask as I won't catch it again." Well, not so fast, buddy. If the B.1.351 and/or the P.1 become dominant, chances are that you WILL catch it again, and the second time can actually be worse than the first one, according to some preliminary evidence (still unconfirmed; that's why I'm saying, let's observe the behavior of these variants a bit longer).

I'm not advocating for indefinite mask use. I'm just saying, a bit longer until these variants show what they're capable of. That's prudent.

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What exactly is the downside of masking up, AKS? Tell me, not from the political standpoint (if you think it's a banner for your rebellious partisan beliefs) but strictly from the standpoint of your health, the health of your loved ones, and the health of your community - what's so bad about masks, pray tell?

 

It has nothing to do with politics (speaking for myself). Masks are an annoyance. They fog up glasses, make it harder to breath, easy to forget, and just generally a pita. That said, I do not have a problem wearing one if I'm at risk of infecting someone else. I've done it for a year now. The rub is that I'm no longer at significant risk of infecting anyone else therefore wearing is a mask is an annoyance whose only function is to keep the public shamers at bay. I DO have a problem doing anything under those conditions.
I have no doubt that you're right that the mutations are a potential concern. But we've had potential concerns with various strains of flu for decades. Lets wait until we start seeing community spread - especially re-infections - before we bring the hammer back down.

 

Good for you, I'm glad that it has nothing to do with politics, because it is EXTREMELY SILLY to jeopardize one's health, the health of one's loved ones, and the health and the economy of one's community, due to partisan talking points and misguided beliefs influenced by some politician's agenda.

Exactly, let's wait. But see, there is ALREADY community spread. If you don't know it, you're misinformed, sorry. The B.1.1.7 is doubling in the US every seven to ten days. Both the P.1 and the B.1.351 have started growing in numbers as well. Most of the infected where these variants first became evident in the US, did not travel and did not have contact with each other, which is irrefutable proof of community spread. Yes, someone brought them in through travel... but then they started spreading in the community. I guarantee, based on basic epidemiology and the observation of how the B.1.1.7 has behaved elsewhere, that by the end of March or early April it will be the dominant strain in the US, and if that's the case and we don't get much of the P.1 and the B.1.351, consider ourselves lucky because the latter two are worse than the former.

The bad part is that these strains won't be the last ones. We already got a domestic one, the CAL.20C (a.k.a. B.1.427/B.1.429). Others will pop up, inevitably. Cross your fingers that they won't show too much antigenic drift. But they probably eventually will. That's what viruses do. They adapt. They try to survive and to evade the host's defenses. What happens is self-selection of the fittest: if a person has a prolonged case of Covid-19 due to a weak immune system, the virus replicates for too long, the person eventually makes antibodies, clears the most susceptible copies, but sturdier copies (with mutations that counter the antibodies) survive and get passed on to caretakers, etc. So, the more we allow these infections to occur and the virus to replicate, the more mutations we will see.

That's why masks would limit the number and the virulence of new strains, in time for the vaccines to zap them. If we lower the guard too soon, what we are doing is that we are fostering the emergence of new variants. That's playing with fire.

The problem with waiting for reinfections to mask up again is that once the cat is out of the bag it's much harder to put it back in the bag. It's a lot wiser to prevent the new aggressive variants from taking hold, than to wait for them to re-infect hundreds of thousands, even millions, and then act. In Epidemiology, it's always best to be proactive than reactive.

Look, masks are inconvenient, sure. Let me tell what is more inconvenient than wearing a mask: wearing a ventilator.

As far as fogging glasses, there is an easy solution; look up this adjustable silicone brace that presses down on the sides of your nose. No fogging when you wear it. I own two of these, my wife owns one, and so do my son and my daughter-in-law. Another advantage of this brace is that it makes of a procedure mask, provided that it is a high quality one (look for the ASTM level 3 certification), something with a tight seal which makes of it something almost as good as an N95 mask (while much more available and much cheaper, and also more comfortable to wear).

fixthemask.com

 

No need to mask up at all. There is no science supporting the efficacy of masks in preventing airborne transmission of virus.

 

Are you suggesting wearing masks for hours a day over a long period of time does not impact the health?

I suggest you come down to Florida and enjoy our pollen with a mask on.. hell take a jog while at it...

 

You don't have vaccines, you have gene editing injections. If we are speaking English here....

 

I'm not "suggesting" anything; I'm saying it, given that I'm a medical doctor with 40 years of experience.

Instances of masks being detrimental to someone's health are very rare. Statements to the contrary are grossly exaggerated and based on anecdotal cases. As a doctor, I've been wearing advanced masks (N95 and sometimes N100) continuously for 9 hours daily since the beginning of this pandemic as we made them mandatory at all times in my hospital, and there is no detrimental effect whatsoever except for the occasional mild headache, although these are masks that have a lot of filtration; let alone, the procedure masks and cloth masks that the public wears.

You can do a neat experiment: get a pulse ox meter (they are cheap on Amazon). Sit comfortably, wait for five minutes for your breathing to even out, and measure your pulse oxygen (should be 97%, or 98%, for most healthy people). Now don a mask. Wait another five minutes, and measure it again. I guarantee that if you are a healthy individual, you'll get the same result you had before the mask.

Actually environments with high pollen count and other forms of pollution or allergens are a reason to mask up. You may have to change your mask for a new one more often, though.

Even in the rare cases that a mask might be detrimental, it is, like in all areas of Medicine, a question of risks and benefits. If someone has a bit of trouble with gas exchange and a bit of headache but stays safe from this nasty disease called Covid-19, it beats the alternative.

Ideas that masks will concentrate viral particulates that the organism is trying to shed out and make the person sicker are a ridiculous, baseless theory. There is some tiny evidence that rebreathing might re-seed some viral particles in other points of the airways, but this is a tiny, tiny effect as compared to the billions and billions of viral copies that are already circulating in the organism of someone infected with the SARS-CoV-2.

No, short of people with severe COPD and other severe lung diseases, people with severe phobias with panic attacks, stuff like this, mask use is not detrimental, and the mild side effects in case of masks with advanced filtration such as a mild headache and "maskne" are far outweighed by the fact that masks (as long as it's a high quality one and there is a good seal) decrease the adjusted odds ratio of contracting the SARS-CoV-2 by 85%, and the relative risk by 82%.

You find that wearing a mask in Florida is inconvenient? I'll tell you what is inconvenient: wearing a ventilator.

But hey, be my guest. You don't want to wear one? Then, don't. After all, it's your health, the health of your loved ones, and the health of your community; it won't affect me (some people like to be candidates for the Darwin Award; that's up to them). Up here where I live, I'll continue to wear one until we see a consistent drop to minimum levels of community transmission and until we can be assured that the new variants won't get us to square zero again.

You can mock this position as much as you want... the Darwin Award gallery is shock full of these mockers who later acquired a severe case of Covid-19 and suddenly regretted that they did not pay attention to these recommendations.

 

You complain about anecdotal and then provide one. You as a doctor work in a controlled environment ... Try chasing kids around in the Florida heat with a mask on for hours after hours.

Oh and could you attempt to be a little more arrogant? ( yes that is sarcasm)

 

Oh, my anecdote is reproduced in the other 20 million American healthcare workers. Not so anecdotal now, right? Not to forget the hundreds of millions worldwide. Nope, we wear masks routinely, and nope, we don't drop dead due to the masks.

Yes, chasing kids around in the Florida heat with a mask on for hours after hours must be uncomfortable. Beats the alternative, though. It will be very hard for you to chase kids around once you're attached to a ventilator.

Sorry, no, I'll remain arrogant. Lay people with completely misinformed notions who think they can pontificate about Medicine do irritate me. I'm patient and generous in allocating my time to explain the scientific views on this and on other topics here on PF, and many here have praised me for providing these explanations (get a clue from the high percentage of "likes" I've collected as compared to the total number of posts I've posted). But depending on the interlocutor's attitude, sure, I'll be arrogant from time to time.

If you don't like my style, feel free to place me on Ignore. I couldn't care less.

 

Who said anything about "dropping dead"..

Arrogance and strawmen seems to be your style.

Then you think "likes" matter?

FFS some of the most vile people here have a ton of "likes". I would point you in there direction but i would be banned for doing so.

How do you go from wear a mask or wear a ventilator with nothing in the middle....

 

Yes, I'm guilty of some hyperbole. Touche. The intent, though, was more sarcasm than a fallacy.