Did Trump MAGA?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Canell, Feb 16, 2021.

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Did Trump MAGA?

  1. Yes, by all means

    14 vote(s)
    24.6%
  2. Sort of

    8 vote(s)
    14.0%
  3. No, not really

    3 vote(s)
    5.3%
  4. No, Trump is a disgrace to America!

    31 vote(s)
    54.4%
  5. I don't know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I don't care

    1 vote(s)
    1.8%
  1. Hockeyaddict

    Hockeyaddict Newly Registered

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    Yup, I agree for sure
     
  2. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    The failed casino operator and faded reality-tv performer "God Emperor" has a fan base that will mindlessly cling like tenacious butt barnacles to him - as he boasted in other words. In his tradition of petty sniveling they will spew their venom upon decent folks who don't kowtow to his lies and tantrums.

    The objective reality is that the Cry Baby Loser was twice-impeached, lost his Party the House, Senate, and Executive, raised unemployment by two full points, bloated the national debt to astronomical heights, received relentlessly negative assessments in independent public surveys throughout his tenure, and was dumped by the American electorate at their first opportunity provides a less fanatical index of his unfortunate ascendancy - that was topped off by his goons' deadly insurrection against our government, predicated upon his blatant lie that he had won the election "in a landslide!"

    He has elevated all his predecessors by one rung on the ladder, and lowered the threshold for all who follow.
     

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  3. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You don't get to erase what the pandemic did from Trump's record and just say "it was all great before that" because HE WAS part of why the pandemic got so bad. So, you can only look at it, all four years of his term, with the final year ALSO considered, like you do for ALL presidents when you look at their legacies.

    So, factoring in the last year too, no, definitely he did NOT Make America Great Again. We ended up worse off than when he took office.

    See, it's not just "the China bug." It's how HE botched the response to it!!!

    Other countries that responded better didn't have the disaster that the "China bug" caused, here. New Zealand, Uruguay, VietNam... and actually almost all others.

    An analysis by an Australian think tank ranked our response to the bug almost dead last, only better than those of Mexico, Colombia, Iran, and Brazil. We did worse than freaking Bolivia!!!

    So, Trump's incompetence, callousness, dereliction of duty, and over-politicizing of it, are in a very significant way, reasons for why it got to be so bad. Just the way he undermined epidemiological containment and led his crowd of followers to be maskless science deniers, unnecessarily made the problem much worse.

    So, no, don't EVER think of this like "oh, America was just fine under Trump before the bug." I may even agree with that... but if we want to look at his term and see how History will judge him, you HAVE to also include 2020 and the botched response to the pandemic.

    Let me give you an example to make the point understood.

    Say, we have a president that presides of a time of peace and prosperity for 3 years. Then, the last year, this president decides to wage a silly war against several of the other countries, like the entire European Union + Russia + China and we get thoroughly defeated, bombed, occupied, and our country becomes a wasteland.

    Would you say of this president "oh he was a great president because his first three years, we were doing great!" ????

    No, you'd say "this president was horrible; he ruined America."

    Get it, now?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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  4. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    An " analysis by an australian think tank"..... Well, I'm sold now....
     
  5. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sure, shoot the messenger. But the analysis is very well done.
    https://interactives.lowyinstitute.org/features/covid-performance/
    Scroll down for Country Rankings.
    Do you actually think that they are wrong? They are absolutely right. We have 4% of the Earth's population and 22% of the Earth's Covid-19 deaths.
    If this looks like a good response to the pandemic, sorry... I don't know what else to tell you. You seem to be a lost cause.
     
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  6. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your little Jab. Is it so terribly difficult to source your claims to begin with? I bet there is even some official american agency who keeps track of such things....if only it had some name...
     
  7. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    That is drastically understating the facts. This wasn't just a botched response. He lied and lied and lied for political gain. It wasn't a simple matter of bad management. It was a reckless, relentless, and deadly attack on science and the people we needed the most. He made wearing a mask political. He made medical treatments political. And he promoted crackpot cures promoted by two-bit charlatans.

    Trump killed more Americans than any other person and perhaps any single country. Through his lies and crackpottery, he is quantifiably the greatest mass murderer in US history.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  8. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jesus. Didn't you notice the freaking link? Read the post again. It's on the second line of the very post you've quoted. You're unbelievable.
    PS - By the way, the Lowy Institute (the messenger you're shooting) is supposed to be center-right and "reactionary." That is, a think thank you might actually like.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  9. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I know (regarding your first paragraph)
    I can't entirely agree with the second one, when you say "perhaps any single country). It is said that Stalin killed between 6 million and 9 million people if “foreseeable” deaths caused by deportation, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps are included. Hitler was responsible for between 11 million and 12 million noncombatant deaths. Mao was responsible for about 1.5 million deaths during the Cultural Revolution, another million for the other campaigns, and between 35 million and 45 million for the Great Leap Famine. Taking a middle number for the famine, 40 million, that’s about 42.5 million deaths.

    Oh wait, you are talking just American deaths (inflicted by other countries). I misinterpreted you. And since the Covid-19 deaths have now surpassed American deaths in WWII, maybe you're right.

    But I wouldn't attribute ALL the Covid-19 deaths to Trump. If he had orchestrated the perfect response, still a lot of people would have died. I blame him for the additional, unnecessary deaths that his lies contributed to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  10. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Where on the second line? There is the post I first quoted
     
  11. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Post #130. That's the one you quoted on post #131 complaining of no link, when there was a link right there in the very quote that you reproduced on post #131. Look, if you have vision problems I can't help you. But I'll post the link again, here. Let's make it really big so that you can see it. Got it now? (All this back and forth simply because you want to shoot the messenger and you responded to one long and complex post with one line shooting the messenger - the hallmark of someone who is short in arguments).
    https://interactives.lowyinstitute.org/features/covid-performance/
    I suggest that instead of shooting the message or complaining of no link when there is a link, you actually address the United States' HORRIBLE performance when facing this pandemic, which by all indicators can't be called good in any way, shape, or form.

    ------------------

    There is only one thing the federal government under Trump sort of did partially right: the Warp Speed initiative. But I remind you that the first and best vaccine approved in the United States, the Pfizer/BioNTech, was researched, developed, and distributed entirely independently of the Warp Speed Initiative. In addition to Pfizer, 8 other vaccines currently approved in various countries also have nothing to do with Warp Speed. So while Warp Speed was good and I've thanked the former president for it, it wasn't the only game in town and wasn't even responsible for the fastest vaccine (nor for the second fastest because Russia's Gamaleya Institute's vaccine nicknamed Sputinik V was also faster than the fastest Warp Speed vaccine; that is, Moderna's).

    Of the 13 vaccines currently in use in the world or about to start use, we have:

    4 that have to do with Warp Speed in various degrees:

    1. Moderna's, a lot;
    2. AstraZeneca's, yes but they also had several other funding lines, and let's acknowledge that the AstraZeneca vaccine is actually pretty lousy and hasn't even earned FDA approval yet, and is being rejected in other countries as not good enough such as Switzerland and South Africa; most Germans don't want it either.
    3. Johnson & Johnson's, yes;
    4. Novavax's, yes but only partially and only after they were pretty much done with R&D; they could perfectly have achieved the same result without Warp Speed)

    9 that are entirely independent of Warp Speed:

    1. Pfizer/BioNTech - excellent vaccine, fastest in the US market
    2. Gamaleya Sputinik V - excellent vaccine, fastest in the world
    3. Curevac/GSK - excellent vaccine, with the potential to be the best in the world given mRNA technology and refrigerator temperatures
    4. Covaxin Bharat Biotech
    5. CoronaVac Sinopharm/Butantan
    6. Vector (a Russian vaccine that is made by a smaller organization than Gamaleya)
    7. Cansino
    8. Sinopharm Beijing Division
    9. Sinopharm Wuhan Division

    Let's also remember that the Warp Speed resulted in a dud - Sanofi's vaccine was withdrawn due to very poor results in the elderly.

    Finally, Warp Speed's sixth attempt, Inovio, is very delayed, and they are now trying to start their phase 3 trial in the second quarter of 2021. Most likely, when/if they conclude they will be too far behind, because we'll get enough vaccines from Moderna, Pfizer, and Johnson & Johnson to vaccinate more than the entire population of the USA before Inovio concludes.

    So, recap of Warp Speed:

    They sponsored six vaccines.

    2 are success stories (Moderna and Johnson & Johnson)
    1 is kind of lousy (AstraZeneca) and I actually hope we DON'T approve it or else by contractual terms we'll have to buy 300 million doses from them, and they will go to waste because we already have better alternatives - probably we'll end up donating the doses to some Third World country that can't afford any better. Also, AstraZeneca had several other funding lines with many other countries, especially the United Kingdom, and could also have done exactly the same lousy job without Warp Speed
    1 looks promising but was only marginally funded by Warp Speed and could have achieved the same result without it as it had funding from international partners and from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (Novavax)
    1 was a dud and was withdrawn (Sanofi) - they are currently resuming attempts but if successful (still a big if) it would only happen in 2022
    1 is very delayed to the point that once it concludes at some point in the second half of 2021 or early 2022 we may not need it any longer

    Not the most fabulous track record... I still praise it, and of course it was correct to bet on six different horses; two did cross the finishing line timely, and it was impossible to know in advance which horse would finish the race.

    So, let's say that the Trump administration had never started the Warp Speed initiative. What would have happened?

    Simple. Pfizer/BioNTech would still finish up by mid December 2020 since that's exactly what they did, entirely independently from Warp Speed.

    We'd then, instead of throwing money at all the other other four losers, would simply by more vaccines from Pfizer. Instead of the 300,000 we purchased, we could then have purchased 700,000, enough for the entire population, and this would have cost us about 5 billion dollars, which is half of what we spent with Warp Speed.

    Novavax would have their vaccine too, and most likely Johnson and Johnson too (sure, they took the money, but it's not like the ultra rich Johnson and Johnson wouldn't be able to do what Pfizer did, that is, use their own money).

    The one exception is Moderna - a very good vaccine that wouldn't have existed without Warp Speed. But again, if we didn't have it, we'd simply buy more from Pfizer, which is a vaccine almost identical to Moderna's.

    ------------

    Finally, Warp Speed was also supposed to help with distribution and administration of the shots. Well, the Trump administration did a lousy job of that. They promised 20 million Americans vaccinated by year end... and only got less than 3 million doses out by that point and even fewer people actually vaccinated by that date. Then they had a number of distribution problems... But Trump pretty much walked away from it all and spend his last weeks complaining of imaginary election fraud and doing nothing, until the Biden administration fixed the distribution problems, something that even some Republican governors have acknowledged.

    ------------

    So, the ONE thing that the Trump administration did well regarding this pandemic, Warp Speed, did produce some good results but wasn't the only game in town, and even entirely without it, we'd have achieved the same number of doses with the same timeline (but would have spent half the amount, in taxpayer's dollars).

    I'm thankful for Warp Speed and what it did for Moderna and to a lesser degree for Johnson and Johnson, but we need to cut it to its actual size: it wasn't that decisive, and that essential. Other initiatives by corporations and foreign governments would have achieved - and did achieve - the same or better results.
     
  12. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  13. PJO34

    PJO34 Well-Known Member

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    Trump made America great again if you like less traffic on the highways and fewer people at the supermarket. 500,000+ dead, many due to mismanagement of the pandemic and turning basic safety protocols into culture war issues. What an idiot.
     
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  14. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    IMO and I am sure someone will label it by some boring political effort to pigeonhole me, but what I see is a LOT more deliberate and technical misinformation, some carefully selected "facts", some reluctance in the media to curb these blatant lies by shouting "freedom of speech" , more clever techies who can devise algorithms of potential public acceptance of a politicians by what they bought online over the last six months or what books they recommend or Youtube links they post.
    I would like to see far fewer visual "in your face" memorable theatre tricks, far more real meaningful debating , far less name calling and ridicule, and personal attacking instead of proper political comparisons.
    Whereas "back then" this openly barbaric cut and thrust would be shocking and cause many to vote the other way out of decency and dignity, today it is a chance for inviting you to a big party where you can publicly humiliate, lie about, exaggerate about, and all you have to do as a politician is impress voters with sound and fury.
    It is like a Victorian fairground. and all designed by psychologists, behaviour specialists, and the wonders of modern technology where anything can be covered up, ignored, twisted or lied about.

    Democracy wasn't built to withstand this.
    Democracy was built on a far more educated voter who recognised dignitas and the ability to reason and be diplomatic.

    But brains were. It is about time everyone who goes to school was compelled to spend a term learning the journalists' tricks, the use of language and how to spot a liar. A basic course in "how they manipulate me" . and what national leadership should be about.

    Because no politician is going to tell you they are jerking you around.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  15. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with your observations...
    There is a thread going now that supports the misinformation you mentioned...
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-press-freedoms.585561/page-4#post-1072481565

    I wish someone would explain why it is so important to allow
    such dangerous lies to spread. Using the First Amendment
    to justify spreading lies seems....just like another lie.
    They in fact justify lying with yet another lie.
     
  16. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    I am afraid that if this kind of manipulation of voters continues, there will be a very nasty govt elected which just happened to be better at algorithms than the other one.
    and just watch the freedom of information go down the plughole.
    "The next voice you will hear is going to be mine...and only mine".

    OTOH if a country tries to silence someone who tells lies, they risk censorship.

    All problems for those younger than I am but it has to be dealt with...the limits of information allowed in the media. Factcheckers have to be more numerous and actively sought out to confirm the truth behind the lies. We should automatically use them before we come to any conclusions.
    So sayeth me...:rock_slayer:
     
  17. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's a clip from an online article discussing "1984"....
    "If Big Brother makes a prediction that turns out to be wrong, the employees of the Ministry correct the record to make it 'accurate' — the intention is to maintain the illusion that the Party is right / absolute. The Party cannot ever seem to change its mind or make a mistake as that would imply weakness; so the Ministry controls the news media by changing history, and changing words in articles about current and past events so that Big Brother and his government are always seen in a good light."

    Doesn't this sound exactly like what the Trumpian movement is up to??
    If they lose an election...they actually won.
    If the crowd attending Trump was smaller than Obama's crowd....then Trump's was actually larger. If Trump supporters attack the Capitol...it was actually antifa.
    etc etc
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  18. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Boy do you have that backward! In a 1984 example, Biden is Big Brother (a symbol, nothing more) and the Democratic Party, combined with the media and academia, is Ingsoc.

    And Trump? He's Emmanuel Goldstein.
     
  19. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    Lil Mike
    If that is true then all govts are as you say.

    The issue is truth, facts and scrutiny by the electorate.
    The shame of it is believing what the b****** tell you without checking.
     
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  20. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree Pixie. Truth has become fluid....

    [​IMG]
     
  21. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But there are comparisons to the Trump movement like the ones above.....
    how do you explain those away?
    All you've done is apply labels to a few people. You haven't actually
    given anything to support your idea....at least not yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
  22. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well what exactly have I posted about believing that "the b******" told me without checking?
     
  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    In 1984, the party is in power, and Emmanuel Goldstein was in the wind. Even when Trump was President, he wasn't really in power. I'm really straining to see how the guy and the movement that are being censored and harnessed by all facets of the establishment is the dictator here.
     
  24. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    Well, you got Mickey Mouse.....
     
  25. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How is it that Trump was not in power?
    If Trump said the virus was no worse than flu...people believed him and acted accordingly.
    If Trump didn't agree with mask wearing....people adopted his belief.
    Have read at least two incidents where a police officers were killed
    trying to enforce the wearing of masks. So much for the "we back the badge"
    and the "we are the party of law and order" as the right likes to profess about themselves.
    If Trump says the election was stolen and he won by a landslide....
    people believe him and are willing to kill to prove it as on Jan 9.

    If anything, Trump has too much power...he is in fact dangerous.
    And as you once predicted here not so long ago...
    he's not finished yet.
     

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