Turning Jesus into God

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Giftedone, Feb 16, 2021.

?

God or Messenger of God .. does it matter ?

  1. Yes - it matters ..

    14 vote(s)
    66.7%
  2. No - it does not

    5 vote(s)
    23.8%
  3. Other - I don't understand the question .. need more information .. @#$% - does not compute !

    2 vote(s)
    9.5%
  1. Hockeyaddict

    Hockeyaddict Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2021
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    121
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    One day we will all find out that our Creator isn’t in the business of having a child and sacrificing him. The entire notion is so outlandish that I don’t even know where to start.

    I would say that Church persecution has kept this belief alive for centuries but in reality, it’s a belief that has been kept alive by fear. Heck, even Chrsitian admit to this. Get into a discussion with a christian on this topic and soon you will hear the Christian saying “I will have lost nothing if I am wrong, but you will have lost everything of you are wrong”. Chrisitians in short market their belief as a hedge.

    But think about it. Is God so unforgiving that he will punish a good, humble honest man for eternity if he doesn’t subscribe to the outlandish idea that God has a son??? Does that even make sense? I in no way could believe in a Creator such as that. Fortunately I do not and I am gratefull to my maker that I have used his marvelous tools of rational reasoning on this topic

    Its amazing how desparate we are that we concoct the most outlandish stories and subscribe to the most outlandish beliefs – all out of fear of what may happen if we do not believe.

    We are such a silly species. And often times we are lazy. Rather than put the hard work into gathering information, we would rather believe in what makes us feel good
     
    gabmux, FreshAir and The Wyrd of Gawd like this.
  2. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    29,682
    Likes Received:
    3,995
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is your opinion but it is not what the biblical fairy tale says.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113

    OK ..I looked it up .. so Plato - Aristotle - Socrates .. were Philosophers .. postulating how the universe worked -

    It was postulated that there was a force that created the universe - and they called this the demiurge .. but this was not necessarily God.

    In Trinity doctrine there is something called the filioque - which is still a point of contention between Orthodox and Catholic to this day... and it is all about who proceeds from who - and in what order.. this debate on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from "The Son" .. or "The Father" and various interation's.

    Also in Trinity doctrine you have the idea of 3 personages .. but you have the Son Proceeding from the Father .. and here we get into all kinds of similarities between Gnostic ideas of the Godhead .. where you had different emanations coming out of the Godhead .. some referred to as Aeons in some Gnostic Doctrine

    but if we say " A) The Son proceeds from the Father" and B) is a different person ... what does this equal ?

    Perhaps that the Son came from the Father .. as you came from your Father ? - and all we are talking here is genetics . which raises the question .. if this Jesus person has his own mind and autonomy - everything that personhood represents - one separate from the Father .. as we are told in Scripture that Jesus does not know all that the father does .. and also that he did not want to go through with it .. asking "The Father" please take this cup from my hand.

    There was no such thing as John until 100 AD .. the famously ambiguous I Am statement.

    In Matt/Mark .. Jesus always refers to the Father as someone other than himself - and does so numerous times. "My God My God - Why have you forsaken me"

    No early Christian would dream of this ridiculous Trinity concept given the story they had .. Jesus was a Son of God .. adopted at the age of 30 at his baptism ..

    to the question above - we are no longer really talking Monotheism .. more of a duotheism .. as this Holy Spirit who is clearly not the equal of the other two... and not ever represented as a person ..

    the only way we can make sense out of these three personages .. is if they all emanate from the Most High - different emanations of the same Godhead.

    Its one way to try to reconcile things into ambiguity .. as no one really has the answer to the above question . and I am talking theologians here .. they will say -- we don't have the answer -- its a grand mystery .. or some such thing - and this is where the rubber hits the road .. as if you go by their doctrine .. We can make sense of the OT -- but not in the way doctrine would like.

    Jesus is one of many "Sons of God" - as it is stated in the OT that there are many.. these not like Jesus though .. these the offspring of God and Goddess .. where Jesus is a God mated with a human .. the "Son of Man" as well as the Son of God - His words ... not mine.
     
  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,673
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How about me, myself and I, three representations of the same person :)
     
  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,673
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You got my like on that one.

    The boundary however is when someone is in denial, where others have to choose for them. Case in point ted bundy, denied all the murders, 'other people decided' for him that he was in fact a murderer!

    The same can be done with any characterization in denial, no one has impunity the own private personal characterization. If they did we would have complete chaos.

    That why we have universities and philosophers that sort out lack of belief, atheism etc for you including the dictionaries.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,673
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think leviticus predates

    Sorry you have no evidence, you only have theories.
     
  7. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    20,614
    Likes Received:
    8,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    All one has to do is delve into a careful study of the Gospel of John to know who Jesus is. He is God. It is useless to discuss otherwise. Some just like self entertainment.
     
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,673
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure, basic logic 000 dictates that to be an atheist one take a position of negation to theist. lack of belief is not a direct negation of theist. No legitimate dictionary would post such a thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  9. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    11,335
    Likes Received:
    11,469
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    ~ The Jewish faith does not embrace the New Testament and believe Jesus was a profit - not God. They rely on the Torah. To some this makes more sense. :pray:
     
  10. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,157
    Likes Received:
    1,887
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    The story about the life and death of Jesus in the NT contains too many errors to be considered credible. It's a fantasy written by believers, not a historical account. There's also the absolute silence of all other historical and archeological sources. It's very hard to believe that such an extraordinary person was completely ignored by all his contemporaries.

    There are no sources whatsoever in the language spoken in Judea at the time of Jesus - Aramaic - nor in Hebrew, for the life and acts of a Jew in Judea. Not only was all the NT written in Greek, but characters in the NT are translating Aramaic words into Greek for their supposedly Jewish Aramaic-speaking audiences. The NT uses as a source the Septuagint, the heretic Greek version of the Tanach.

    Contrary to conventional wisdom, Christianity wasn't born in Judea, but in Greek-speaking communities throughout the Near East and North Africa. The Christian Oriental Orthodox communities are Monophysite, which is consistent with original belief in a divine Jesus.

    Early Christianity was, as many other religions of the time, a religion of mysteries. That means that only a relatively small number of initiates where taught all the philosophical and theological subtleties of the faith, while the mass of the simple believers was only taught the basic principles. Writers of gospels and epistles had to avoid revealing the secrets but convey the right message, which wasn't easy. For the unbiased reader, the NT is a very rich source for the bitter disputes and disagreements that plagued the beginnings of the new religion, not a historical account of real facts. This is why the stories told in the gospels are not reliable sources for historical realities, and should be interpreted in the correct cultural, religious, and political context at the time of their writing.

    Religious syncretism has been a faithful feature of religions from ancient times. Old celebrations, ceremonies, and rituals have usually received a makeover in new religions, as have the old gods. The only true Christian innovation was the notion of a god leaving the comfort of the divine realm to suffer, die, and come back to life for the sole purpose of saving humanity (oh, the human ego!). The rest is not fundamentally different from what already was.
     
    Cosmo likes this.
  11. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    6,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Do you own a tv?
     
    Cosmo likes this.
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    150,175
    Likes Received:
    62,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    thanks for the like....

    I do not care what ones religion says, if one follows parts that say to murder someone.... it's still murder

    as far as athiest and theists

    one believes in a God, one doesn't... that is all the definition means
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    150,175
    Likes Received:
    62,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    nope, it says that the definition of Atheist is one that does not believe in a God(s), they do not have to take any position, believe anything, do anything, everyone is born an atheist
     
    Buri likes this.
  14. Hockeyaddict

    Hockeyaddict Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2021
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    121
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    However, aristotle (aka the Father of Logic and rational reasoning) in no way subscribed to a religion. He knew it was a crock

    Dont misconstrue the notion of a creator with Religion. Ther have ben many wise men (referred to as Deists) who acknowledge the likleyhood of a a creator.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  15. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,673
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure if you want to totally flush logic, reason, grammar, lexography, linguistics all down the crapper as the atheist creed.

    So you post a top shelf credible definition that the inventor wont even dignify with their name in a link....good luck selling that to anyone outside the little atheist clique on this board.
    Why would he? he had his own.

    At the school, he set up a library which later became the model for the Library of Alexandria in the Ptolemaic Kingdom. There, he took in several disciples, such as Eresos, [1]

    His religion had disciples no different than any other religion.

    His religion ran contrary to the contemporary religion, hence he was banished from the area.

    What is Scientology for 100?

    I need something to collect dust.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  16. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    37,994
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female

    There are different life forms and they've been known throughout history - but they weren't call aliens, they were called angels, demons, and even ghosts. Then the Orthodox and Catholic Church have canonized Saints, and some remained in this world after they died, to help humanity in different ways.

    As to the large boulders, I'm a firm believer in an expanding earth. But not in and earth that expands at a slow rate each year, but one that has bursts of expansion.

    One of the proofs that's given for the expanding earth theory, is that the dinosaurs legs would not have been able to sustain their weight with our gravity, and for gravity to be less, the earth had to have been much smaller. Would this also apply to humans? Could there have been a time during man's evolution, when people were much larger and as gravity increased they were at a disadvantage?

    Which of course bodes another question. If the earth goes into another burst of expansion, what will happen to poor Prince William and Trump and their families? Oh well, at least we'll survive.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  17. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    37,994
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I thought Socrates was banned for believing in one god, but he preferred to die and drank hemlock. I believe Aristotle was his student. Anyway Athens was a sea nation, so they must have picked up the concept of one God from Israel.

    As for Aristotle having disciples, wouldn't that mean students?
     
  18. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    37,994
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    There's a lot of projection here, because when someone is out of Grace, they can't possible understand God as we know and experienced Him.
     
    Mitt Ryan likes this.
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't think I said that he did .. and it is you who is misconstruing - When you get into creative forces - forces the invisible hand that moves the universe .. you are talking religion - however, you are correct in saying that these folks were not coming at it from a religion of the day perspective .. its a subtle distinction .. easy to miss.

    Regardless - these ideas were co-opted by religion - whom-ever wrote the Gospel of John in particular. He wanted to use terminology that the people were familiar with .. and these concepts - having been around for quite some time - had taken on religious meaning - as well as philosophical .

    By using "the Logos" terminology to describe the divinity of Jesus - the Author is trying to appeal to a larger audience - using terms can concepts that were familiar.

    And in this respect it matters not what Aristotle thought - about these concepts - but what the audience of the day thought.
     
  20. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    NO! LOL! He was convicted for impiety and corrupting the young, and was sentenced to death. He was required to drink hemlock as the method of execution.

    If you fall out of grace you can't keep the facts straight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  21. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They say the same is true of LSD
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting take on those who visited from the sky ... not sure what to say about dino legs though .. would have to look into it - doesn't sound valid on the surface but - -- who knows...
     
  23. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    37,994
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Yet I watched a live stream of a priest at a small church in Athens place a Cross on a crippled women's head and tell her: 'Get up and walk and don't be afraid'. Which she did in front of thousands of witnesses, many of whom were taking videos of the event.

    It shut up the atheist government and the EU, who had been harassing him for the ongoing miracles. They might be fighting God, but God is fighting back.
     
    Mitt Ryan likes this.
  24. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113


    LOL! One of the oldest scams going. And you fell for this crap?
     
  25. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Messages:
    3,721
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Did God not create us all in his image?
    Are you saying God is partial to some but not all?
    Do you suppose God has favorites?
    Did Jesus preach that we are any different than he?
     

Share This Page