How to make a social safety-net for the post-covid world

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Down-boy!

    You're not the only one in this forum. Just move on by without the adolescent comments ... !
     
  2. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Their secondary-schooling was inadequate, so the failed the test.

    Surprise, surprise?

    Hardly. The entire educational system is a mess? Yeah, maybe ...[/QUOTE]

    I'm not judging the public education system. I'm just saying giving free college studies to everyone is not a solution to anything. Especially when we've done a miserable job in K-12...we'd also screw up a free college system...
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do realize that in many Democrat areas they are passing kids who shouldn't be graduating from high school?

    We have a family friend who is a teacher in a big city area. He's super-progressive but even he finds it unbelievable what the school district is doing and requiring him to do.
     
  4. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bollocks!

    I live in a place called the EU where post-secondary education is nearly free, gratis or for nothing. NOBODY HERE IS COMPLAINING about the high-cost of tertiary-level educational costs!

    The low-end industrial jobs in the US have been Very Largely Displaced by China. Manufacturing today hires less than 15% of the American work-force.

    As shown below, more than half of American workers are in routine-manual or non-routine-manual employment. These are the cheapest-paying jobs going and the reason why National Income stats at the low-end are the most significant part of the total working population ... !


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AND SO?

    The Federal Reserve Population Survey I posted shows some very disturbing tendencies:
    1) Non-routine manual is far too important part of the total employment*. (The pay-scale in this range - a third of the working population - is amongst the lowest.)
    2) Both manual/cognitive is recovering after the abrupt downturn in 2006/7. But more of the population are in "non-routine and routine" manual /cognitive
    3) Non-routine Cognitive is a much larger part of the working-population, which is goodness. Because salary-rates in this services-category are better and require a higher schooling level.

    About these Definitions:
    *Routine Cognitive
    *Routine Manual

    They are key to the study and quite interesting differences. But only to a group who are familiar with "screening" the population to decide who is Cognitive and who Manual ...

    *Because I think it occurs with far too many kids leaving high-school before a degree is achieved and therefore condemned to a life of low-paid work (even if in the services-industries).
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    How is it 'out of reach' for those people? When students are paying back the costs only after they're qualified and employed, what you're claiming makes no sense. EG, my three kids are paying for their own education, but it hasn't cost them a cent so far - and the eldest is three years in.
     
  7. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    And what if they want to pursue a degree in something completely useless? Something that will not lead to employment?
     
  8. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Could care less what others do about education. I'm talking only about the US system and with our current status of how we're doing with K-12, providing free college studies is not a solution to anything.

    According to the 2018 County Business Patterns, the manufacturing sector employed11.9 million workers in the United States in 2018 – and the average annual employee payroll was $60,260.

    No matter how you educate the public, we will always need manufacturing and service workers and tens of millions of them, and they will typically earn less than others with higher education...
     
  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your ignorance is showing.

    Useless exchanging with you on this key matter ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  10. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Please explain the measurable benefits of free college studies? No diatribe...just measurable benefits?
     
  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MASSIVE PERSONAL EDUCATION DEBT

    The "maths" are staring you (us) in the face! The percentage of the American workforce (for statistical purposes) is measured by the Department of Labor. There are two divisions of work - Industrial Manufacturing and Service Industries.

    The breakdown between the two has reached 12% to 88% in favor of Services Industries. And so?

    The latter requires far more "intelligence" to provide than the former. Over the past three decades Uncle Sam has shifted the Manufacturing Jobs mostly to China and Mexico and other parts of the world because of costs!

    Those jobs aint comin' back! Whyzzat?

    There is the slightest chance that with more investment in automated production that some will indeed return to the US. Those investments are being made - but the "manpower" is not the same as in the past.

    Those running highly automated manufacturing plants all have post-secondary degrees. Those degrees today cost each of them an average tuition-fee of $24K a year.
    Meaning they each graduate with a massive-debt to pay off ... !
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  12. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    THE INFORMATION AGE

    Once again:
    *For truly gainful employment, the necessity of a higher-degree for most of our workforce is ultimate. (A higher degree is "any learning further than a high-school diploma).
    *Because the manufacturing sector has long since made its way to China and Mexico. (There are two major economic-categories of "work": Manufacturing and Services.)
    *The US was amongst the first to become less and less an employer of personnel in Manufacturing Industries. We started shipping out basic manufacturing-jobs to Mexico in the 1990s.
    *There is now a 12%-to-88% balance between Manufacturing and Services Industries employment in the US - for which the latter requires additional studies beyond a high-school degree.
    *But a higher-level degree and thus Income Level (Basic Know-how Training, Two-and four year Associate/Bachelor degree, Masters Degree, Doctorate level degree) have become exceedingly expensive in the US.
    *One can send their kids here in Europe into a higher-level degree learning for almost next-to-nothing. (The equivalent of $500 to $1500) There is NO FINANCIAL BARRIER to extended learning in Europe!

    From here - Cost of College in the US

    [​IMG]

    Anymore questions about that above "progression" in degree-learning which has become a keystone-element of one's economic existence nowadays in this new Information Age of ours ... ?

    PS: Some others call the above
    "The debt-stone-around-my-neck when I graduate from higher-education in the US!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  13. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    To OP, yes, you're right. The welfare state did come apart. People got $600/week unemployment checks beyond the deadlines imposed in non-pandemic times; then many people got stimulus checks 1, 2, and 3; And there was an eviction moratorium, so people didn't become homeless during the pandemic.

    So, yeah, people got many benefits, and I'm sure many wish these things could stay around. But they will most likely go away once the pandemic is over.

    Even if we expand the welfare state, it will just be eroded down over the years by Republican lawmakers or sell-outs like President Bill Clinton.
     
  14. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ok, let's get one thing straight. Not everyone is mentally capable of going to college or even high school. And these people might not be able to get a job better than working in the grocery store stocking shelves. Low wage, high effort. And, yes, they are working because Republican lawmakers didn't want them to get a free ride in life.
     
  15. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Since when is PERSONAL debt an issue for the government?

    Why not have the government provide free housing and free vehicles to avoid PERSONAL debt?

    PERSONAL debt is a choice, it's a loan in order to have funding today but can pay it back in the future. If ALL of these people are getting a higher education, in order to have higher earning potential, then why can't they pay off their education loans?

    Like I said...Please explain the measurable benefits of free college studies? No diatribe...just measurable benefits?
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    THE JOB-SHIFT OUT OF THE US

    Like I've said here only a hundred times: Services Industries are major component nowadays of American-jobs. Only around twelve percent of which are found today in the Manufacturing Industries.

    From here: Outsourcing and the shift from manufacturing to services
    (Dated from 2014!)


    Excerpt:
    Note that the above comment was typical in the year it was made - 2014. Not much has been changed except the fact that American manufacturers have employed a higher-level of high-tech engineering in production-processes in the US. The talent for which requires advanced degrees.


    Once the northeast of the US was the center of manufacturing jobs in the plastics-industry. Today there are virtually none left. Just once decrepit buildings that, if lucky, have been transformed into office buildings (for the Services-industry job category). But the phenomenal job-shift has been generalized in the US.

    The major benefactor country from this Job Shift was at first Mexico. Since the 1990s, however, it has been China the major beneficiary in the jobs-shift - and more recently Southeast Asia ...

     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    And what on earth does that have to do with financial security? I've seen plenty of migrant families work the shittiest of low paid jobs, and using the power of pooled resources and iron self-discipline in frugality - end up buying investment properties/start businesses/put their kids through expensive STEM degrees, etc etc.

    Anyone can get ahead, even on a minimum wage. It's not how much you earn, it's what you do with it.
     
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  18. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, not everyone is able to do things illegally to get by. A house with 20 people stuffed in it? Having access to those funds while others have little to no control of their money? And, their money is taken by the people who house them?

    I agree that if one uses their money wisely it can pay off. Even at minimum wage, it can work. But, there needs to be a lot of support in place to make things work at minimum wage. And, that's why adults are moving into their parent's house now-a-days. And, what about more welfare programs?
     
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) Who said anything about illegality? And why twenty people? Two families might total less than ten, who could easily and legally share an American sized two storey house. Or it might be 6 siblings/cousins etc, or 12 friends. There are as many legal varients as their are people.

    2) I have no clue what you mean by 'their money is taken by the people who house them'. Why would family take money from each other?

    3) Of course it works. And adults moving into the parents house is mutually beneficial, because the parents get help with home maintenance, ongoing costs, personal care, etc - so it isn't 'support' in the sense you mean. No one loses out, or has to pay for someone else.
     
  20. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM

    I cannot here write in depth what is happening in the US healthcare. I have lived in France for a long, long time. But, I am familiar with international studied of national healthcare systems. And the US does not come out on top.(The last time I looked it was in the 11th place of a long, long list of international healthcare systems that had been studied.)

    I can only report how Europe treats its poor - and the total population of the EU is far larger than that of the US. what I can report is this: the national-governmental subsidies for healthcare are sufficient to the task (here in Europe). There are, of course, lapses but most of the poor get the subsidies they need to survive in good health. The greater problem in the European Union is that of higher than the US rates of unemployment. But, the EU spends far less of its national-budgets on their Defense-Departments.

    Which, I feel, is the significant difference between the US and Europe. Europe can afford to treat equitably its poor and unemployed. The US cannot because of far-too-large an expenditure on the DoD.

    That must change or the lack of a proper National Healthcare* System in the US will go on, and on, and on forever - which has already been the case for much of America's recent past ...

    *Due to the fact that educational-costs (of doctors, nurses, etc.) is so very high in the US, those graduating need higher-salaries to pay-of their debts! (And, of course, when those debts have been paid-off they continue with the high-salaries!)
     
  21. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]
     
  22. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    1. I was doing an appartment search and I happened to go to the Spanish section of the site. That's where I found the cheap, small accommodations that the espanola workers live in.

    2. I have heard that the caretakers of someone on SSI has most of their money taken for 'room and board'.

    3. Well, yes I agree with you on that one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  23. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    We need DoD. If you haven't noticed we have major rivals in China and Russia. We need to defend ourselves.
     
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are presuming that bot might want to attack the US? Why, pray tell.

    It would be disadvantageous to both economically and particularly China.

    It just plane crazy to think either would attack the US. For what gain?

    Who wants to run another country it has subdued, particularly one as large and diverse as the both the US and Europe?

    Nope, it just does not make sense ... !
     
  25. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Given that they think Uncle Sam is the "major economic rival" threatening their economic existence it is understandable that China is a major competitor particularly for both low-cost goods (pot 'n pans) as well as higher cost items like computers.

    In the services-sector they are barely present.

    The Chinese are not fools. Why should they attack the US to subdue one of the largest markets for their goods ... ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021

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