America's Mutual Gun Massacre

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by LafayetteBis, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    GUNS, GUNS, GUNS!

    And you wish to remain ignorant of the facts that guns are a major source of deaths in the US?

    Because, like some child, "guns enthuse you"! Which some persist in thinking is a psychological disorder.

    From here: The Psychology of Guns


    Excerpt:

    Which, I must admit, is a good reason for me to remain in France, which bans all automatic weapons of all kinds:
    From here:

    Country - (Year) - Homicide Rate
    [​IMG] United Kingdom (2015) 0.02
    [​IMG] United States (2017) 4.46
    [​IMG] France (2014) 0.12

    PS: France and the UK ban guns (except for hunting)!
    PPS: List of countries by firearm-related death rate:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
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  2. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True enough.

    From here: Are AR-15 Rifles a Public Safety Threat? Here's What the Data Say

    Excerpt:
    So, yes, for the US, they are no real and present danger ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what is the number of kid-murders that would be necessary for Uncle Sam to get a "legal-handle" on the problem?

    Also, would you care at all if one of your kids was a victim .... ?
     
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  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    EEEEEEK, ITS A GUN AND PSEUDO PSYCHOBABBLE!!!


    You have absolutely nothing to add to this thread than outright lies, insults, distorted "statistics" and pseudo psychobabble.

    1. Re: Lie number one:
    No, Guns are not even among the top ten causes of death in the US.

    "Leading Causes of Death"
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

    Data are for the U.S.

    Number of deaths for leading causes of death
    • Heart disease: 659,041
    • Cancer: 599,601
    • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
    • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
    • Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
    • Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
    • Diabetes: 87,647
    • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
    • Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783
    • Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

    2. Your next excerpt from the anti gun "Psychology Today" makes no argument for disarming American citizens. It's just an excerpt from one of anti gun Obama's speeches and a recitation of various polls.


    3. And Finally, no anti gun nonsense would be complete without the "Developed Countries" scam in which timid, little hoplophobes attempt to compare America to countries that are entirely different from the US.

    "The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries"
    https://mises.org/wire/mistake-only-...oped-countries

    EXCERPT " Note, however, that these comparisons always employ a carefully selected list of countries, most of which are very unlike the United States. They are countries that were settled long ago by the dominant ethnic group, they are ethnically non-diverse today, they are frequently very small countries (such as Norway, with a population of 5 million) with very locally based democracies (again, unlike the US with an immense population and far fewer representatives in government per voter). Politically, historically, and demographically, the US has little in common with Europe or Japan.

    The US has the highest murder rate in the "developed world" — presumably because of its lax guns laws —we are told again and again.

    Few people who repeat this mantra have any standard in their heads of what exactly is the "developed" world. They just repeat the phrase because they have learned to do so. They never acknowledge that when factors beyond per capita GDP are considered, it makes little sense to claim Sweden should be compared to the US, but not Argentina. Such assertions ignore immense differences in culture, size, politics, history, demographics, or ethnic diversity. Comparisons with mono-ethnic Asian countries like Japan and Korea make even less sense"CONTINUED


    4. In my Post # 22, I proved that the deadliest mass killing in the US was done not with a scary "assault weapon" or any firearm but with one dollar's worth of gasoline(1).
    Additionally, I showed that the deadliest mass school killing was done with a crude home made bomb(2) not a firearm. Until you can prove that a determined killer will suddenly give up his homicidal mission because of any additional gun control law, please keep your solutions to France's problems in France because they won't work in the US.

    Finally, if it were not for the very different, well armed US and American marksmen, you'd be speaking German today.



    (1) "Happy Land fire"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

    EXCERPT "González went to an Amoco gas station, then returned to the establishment with a plastic container with $1 worth of gasoline.[2][4] He spread the fuel at the base of a staircase, the only access into the club, and then ignited the gasoline.[5]

    Eighty-seven people died in the resulting fire."CONTINUED


    (2) "The 1927 Bombing That Remains America’s Deadliest School Massacre"

    "Ninety years ago, a school in Bath, Michigan was rigged with explosives in a brutal act that stunned the town"

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...chool-massacre-180963355/#KSipwm4IUrIbB9uc.99

    EXCERPTS "In the end 44 people died, 38 of them students. It wasn’t the first bombing in the country’s history—at least eight were killed during the Haymarket Square rally in Chicago in 1886, and 30 when a bomb exploded in Manhattan in 1920. But none had been so deadly as this, or affected so many children."CONTINUED
     
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  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    UNCLE SAM FIRST IN GUN RELATED DEATHS!

    Deny this fact here:
    [​IMG]

    Summary from the original article at the Library of Congress (last update 2020): Wikimedia Commons

    Excerpt:
    Uncle Sam in last-place!

    A cogent rebuttal please. With factual evidence ... !
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OVER 50 COUNTRIES WITH STRICTER GUN LAWS HAVE HIGHER HOMICIDE RATES(1)


    I already refuted your blatant falsehood that: " ...guns are a major source of deaths in the US" and also debunked your apples-to-oranges comparison with the fact that the cherry picked "Developed (aka "High Income Countries") Countries"(2) are in no way comparable to the US. and even have different ways of determining what a "gun homicide" is(3).
    Apparently, you neither read nor understood the article I cited: "The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries"

    Russia, for example which is far more like the US than tiny Belgium or chilly Norway has far stricter gun laws than the US but also has a much greater homicide rate. The same is true of over 50 countries around the world that either prohibit gun ownership of have far stricter gun laws.

    If draconian gun laws helped reduce homicides, they would work everywhere, not just in "Developed" / "High Income" Countries that are entirely different from the US in innumerable ways.





    (1) "Intentional homicides (per 100,000 people) - Country Ranking"
    https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankings


    (2) "5 Tricks Gun-Control Advocates Play"
    https://mises.org/wire/5-tricks-gun-...advocates-play

    EXCERPT "And finally, there is the problem of the fact that not all countries count homicides in quite the same way. In the US, killings committed in self defense are included as homicides, as are unsolved homicides. Things are done differently in the UK, for example, as noted in this April 2000 report from Parliament:

    Figures for crimes labelled as homicide in various countries are simply not comparable. Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent. "CONTINUED




    (3) "The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries"
    https://mises.org/wire/mistake-only-...oped-countries

    EXCERPT " Note, however, that these comparisons always employ a carefully selected list of countries, most of which are very unlike the United States. They are countries that were settled long ago by the dominant ethnic group, they are ethnically non-diverse today, they are frequently very small countries (such as Norway, with a population of 5 million) with very locally based democracies (again, unlike the US with an immense population and far fewer representatives in government per voter). Politically, historically, and demographically, the US has little in common with Europe or Japan.

    The US has the highest murder rate in the "developed world" — presumably because of its lax guns laws —we are told again and again.

    Few people who repeat this mantra have any standard in their heads of what exactly is the "developed" world. They just repeat the phrase because they have learned to do so. They never acknowledge that when factors beyond per capita GDP are considered, it makes little sense to claim Sweden should be compared to the US, but not Argentina. Such assertions ignore immense differences in culture, size, politics, history, demographics, or ethnic diversity. Comparisons with mono-ethnic Asian countries like Japan and Korea make even less sense"CONTINUED
     
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  7. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    appeal to emotion-you lose the debate. what would you feel if your child was home alone and she called 9-11 and when the cops got there she had been raped and killed? My worry is that my son, who is a black belt, with significant knife training and won a pistol speed shooting tournament at age 11-would waste ammo on some mope who broke into his house.
     
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  8. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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  9. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    That’s reasonable. Of course many of the criminals are running the NRA. So they’ll be easy to find. The only corporation with a convicted felon for a president who left because it was too corrupt even for him. Now Wayne and his cronies have filed for NRA bankruptcy so they can relocate in a state that protects their criminal activity....they think.

    The NRA is on the run. They need all the banned weapons they can sell to the cartel at the border to pay for Wayne’s vacation trips. You can't make this sht up
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  10. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    easy, gun banners will make it more and more burdensome
     
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  11. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    None of the restrictions sought by anti-gun liberals, leftists and Democrats will do this.
    They just restrict the rights of the law abiding.
    As intended
     
  12. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    20,000,000 AR115s in the US.
    Over the last 40 years, 16 of them have been used to murder 266 people in mass shootings.
    That's 0.4 rifles per year, used to murder 6.65 people per year.
    Whatever point you think you made, fails.
     
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  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    20% OR 74%?

    From here:

    Homicides committed by firearm in the EU is about 20%. Having fun in the US are we with homicides because Covid is so very boring?

    Americans are a "free people" not because of gun-protection but because a formal declaration of such a fact accepted by its people. And by "free" is not meant in the least that any means for taking the life of another individual is tolerated-but-punished - it may not be permissible but definitely remains possible!

    Which would you prefer my 20% or your 74%? But, even if you preferred the 20%, you can't have it! Never, not in the US. All those firearms confiscated is nearly Mission Impossible.

    Have fun ... ! :^{

     
  14. daisydotell

    daisydotell Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    France also has a few people that like guns, trucks and knives. Check it out. the-deadliest-terror-attacks-in-france-in-the-21st-century.html
     
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  15. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    COMPARING APPLES TO WATERMELONS



    I already have fun in the US because of our 2nd Amendment rights.
    Over the weekend I did some target shooting next to my blacksmith shop where I have my own target range and did pretty well for a 70 year old "Scratch n' Dent" Army Veteran.
    How much target shooting did you do in your back yard with your 9mm and .45acp pistols?

    I used to race bicycles, box, wrestle, play football, soccer and various other sports but after multiple injuries, surgeries, joint replacements, cancer and a heart condition, occasional target shooting is about the only sport I can still enjoy even though I have many other interests.

    As far as comparing America's gun homicide rate to France's, you might as well compare a Citroen 2CV to a Corvette for all the various differences involved in the two countries.
    Did you simply ignore the article I cited that shows the futility of comparing countries that are entirely different from each other in countless ways (1)?
    It is equally disingenuous to focus on only gun homicides since the tool used to kill someone doesn't make them any less dead if it's a bomb, knife or auto.

    As I noted in my Post # 29, the deadliest mass killing, ever, in America was not done with any firearm but was done with only one dollar's worth of gasoline(2).

    So, your "20 to 74" comparison is really both disingenuous and meaningless because it deliberately omits so many factors to intentionally achieve a predetermined conclusion.

    You have simply confirmed that the goal of gun control advocates is to eliminate private gun ownership, not reduce homicides.



    (1) "The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries"
    https://mises.org/wire/mistake-only-...oped-countries

    EXCERPT " Note, however, that these comparisons always employ a carefully selected list of countries, most of which are very unlike the United States. They are countries that were settled long ago by the dominant ethnic group, they are ethnically non-diverse today, they are frequently very small countries (such as Norway, with a population of 5 million) with very locally based democracies (again, unlike the US with an immense population and far fewer representatives in government per voter). Politically, historically, and demographically, the US has little in common with Europe or Japan.

    The US has the highest murder rate in the "developed world" — presumably because of its lax guns laws —we are told again and again.

    Few people who repeat this mantra have any standard in their heads of what exactly is the "developed" world. They just repeat the phrase because they have learned to do so. They never acknowledge that when factors beyond per capita GDP are considered, it makes little sense to claim Sweden should be compared to the US, but not Argentina. Such assertions ignore immense differences in culture, size, politics, history, demographics, or ethnic diversity. Comparisons with mono-ethnic Asian countries like Japan and Korea make even less sense"CONTINUED


    (2) "Happy Land fire"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

    EXCERPT "González went to an Amoco gas station, then returned to the establishment with a plastic container with $1 worth of gasoline.[2][4] He spread the fuel at the base of a staircase, the only access into the club, and then ignited the gasoline.[5]

    Eighty-seven people died in the resulting fire."CONTINUED
     
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One goes with the other. Europe has proven that.

    Give up the guns and go bowling ...

    I agree, which is why I do not make that mistake.

    I compare data between two similar "united nations". The EU is modeled after the US, but is very different in many, many ways.

    The two (US and EU) are also the only entities on earth that are almost perfectly similar socioeconomically!

    One similarity is the fact that they want to avoid needless killing by guns. But, the EU decided to get drastic about it. No guns, no killings.

    So far, so good. No complaints ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    Because America is a free country and people have rights.

    Also there is the fact that gun availability has little impact on homicide rates.


    Machine guns were heavily restricted nearly 90 years ago.


    Wrong. Lawfully owned machine guns have not been a problem since they were heavily restricted nearly 90 years ago.


    Wrong. Gun availability has little impact on homicide rates.


    The victims would be just as dead if they were killed with a different weapon.


    Actually statistics are quite clear that gun availability has little impact on homicide rates.


    The US heavily restricted access to full autos nearly 90 years ago.


    They'd be just as dead if they were killed with different weapons.


    It would have to be higher than the current figure of zero.

    Turtledude is 100% correct. These weapons have not been any problem since they were heavily restricted nearly 90 years ago.


    The victims would be just as dead if they were killed with a different weapon.


    How about questioning the relevance of that fact. Is that good enough?

    Again, those people would be just as dead if they were killed with a different weapon.
     
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  19. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for your contribution of typically one-liner nonsense.

    Issues of considerable intellectual consequence need responses that are more detailed and explained.

    Try harder ...
     
  20. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Guns came in handy on Normandy Beach kept you from speaking German to this day
     
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  21. Toggle Almendro

    Toggle Almendro Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree that facts and reality are nonsense.


    This is not an issue of any intellectual consequence.


    My existing facts are sufficient.
     
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  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    No, it hasn't proven anything you claim(1) and you're still denying the fact that the countries comprising the EU are nothing like the US:

    They are countries that were settled long ago by the dominant ethnic group, they are ethnically non-diverse today, they are frequently very small countries (such as Norway, with a population of 5 million) with very locally based democracies (again, unlike the US with an immense population and far fewer representatives in government per voter). Politically, historically, and demographically, the US has little in common with Europe or Japan.
    Such assertions ignore immense differences in culture, size, politics, history, demographics, or ethnic diversity. Comparisons with mono-ethnic Asian countries like Japan and Korea make even less sense"(2)


    If draconian gun laws resulted in fewer homicides, why is Russia among the over 50 countries around the world(3) that has far higher homicide rates than the US?

    All of these 50+ countries have draconian gun laws / bans yet they still have far higher homicide rates than the US.

    If stricter gun laws / bans helped to reduce homicides, they'd reduce homicides everywhere, not just in a few EU countries that entirely unlike the US.

    (1) "Gun Use Surges in Europe, Where Firearms Are Rare"
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/gun-use-surges-in-europe-where-firearms-are-rare-11546857000


    (2) "The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries"
    https://mises.org/wire/mistake-only-...oped-countries


    (3) "Intentional homicides (per 100,000 people) - Country Ranking"
    https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankings
     
  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, why not. Do show how the economics of the EU are different from the Economics of the US. They aren't! (And differing volumes are of no consequence whatsoever.)

    Which means what? That we Yanks behave just like the Europeans, even if they employ a good many more languages than we. And, believe me, I've known a good many Brits who insist that America is foreign-country with its own distinct version of English. Like Canada!

    Enough is enough ...
     
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You seem to compare apples with oranges and think they are both fruit so identical. I have shown the statistical gross-difference between death-by-hand-gun rates in the both the EU and US, and you insist it it wrong.

    This discussion is useless. Bye-bye ...
     
  25. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    stupid people result in stupid poll results. when you combine stupid people and a dishonest media, you will get some really asinine polls/. we aren't giving our rifles up and we really have very little use for foreigners who appear to be Aesop's fox
     

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