Euro 2020 and Copa America Football Tournaments.

England's defense has been stout - you can't argue with three shutouts.

To your point about their goal scorers, I think opening up the offense would be an enormous help. They got nowhere dinking and drinking and dribbling into the teeth of Scotland's defense but when they opened things up against the Czechs they created opportunities for themselves and Sterling scored. Rashford has helped in that regard when he played - I wish there was a way they could get him into the game earlier, and I wonder if they really have to pull Kane off the field to do that. That brings me to my last point - Gareth Southgate has got to start thinking more creatively and aggressively. He's got a shload of talent on that team and its his job to get them performing to their potential.

 

Agreed. That's what I said in post #646 a couple of pages back.

 

Uruguay 2-0 Bolivia, FT

What's with own goals in these tournaments??? We had another one today, Uruguay's first. Then they scored a good one.

This could have been something like 7-0.

Uruguay wasted the most incredible goals ever. Including, in the last minute, with the goal wide open, just tapping it in was needed, and the Uruguayan still managed to shoot wide right. Extremely poor finishing! This team won't go far if they can't shoot on target. Cavani was prolific in wasting opportunities, although he did score the second goal (kind of his only on-target shot). Suárez played better: he did shoot on target a few times but the Bolivian goalie was arguably the man of the match and produced some incredible saves. Anyway, the loss sinks Bolivia further down, making it easier for Paraguay to advance (Argentina and Chile had already advanced, and this result of today has secured a spot for Uruguay too). Paraguay can advance with a draw or win tonight against Chile, or a draw or win against Uruguay on Monday, or a draw or loss by Bolivia against Argentina on Monday (and Bolivia would have to win by a lot to qualify over Paraguay, as they are 6 goals behind Paraguay in GD - that is, this group is pretty set already in terms of who advances, because there is no way Bolivia will beat Argentina 7-0, LOL). So, the last games will just define the seeds.

This game wasn't good, in terms of skills. They looked like amateurs! Sure, Uruguay did play much better than Bolivia, but then, it's Bolivia. It's not that hard to beat Bolivia when the latter can't count on the rarefied air of their tall mountains to even out the odds against the other South American teams.

 

Chile ends its group phase participation tonight against Paraguay, at 8PM. Uruguay and Paraguay will still have a game in hand tonight (their game against each other on Monday). If Chile wins tonight, they can't fall to 4th place. If they lose, though, Paraguay would have 6 points and Chile would be locked at 5 points, and then if Uruguay beats Paraguay on Monday, Uruguay goes to 7, and Chile falls down to 4th place and then they will face Brazil.

I am rooting for Brazil, so I don't want stronger Chile to be Brazil's quarterfinal adversary. Therefore, I'm rooting for Chile tonight.

There is no combination of results that would make Argentina face Brazil in the quarterfinals. So Brazil's biggest quarterfinal threat is Chile.

 

2014, showed the Brazilian problem, without Neymar, average. Olympics with Neymar, solid. They won against a German U21, which had never trained together before the Olympics, a last minute team. Nobody wanted to go to the Olympics and the clubs were very hesitant to release the players. Was quiet the story in Germany. Hrubesch was about to quit as National Coach, because of it.
Final, Germany neutralized Messi, frustrated him and a half and frustrated Messi, ain't good enough to lift Argentina. That's part of the Messi history, one of the greatest and will never win a International title, like Lewi. Neymar, sorry, same fate. Olympics and maybe the Copa.
Yes my friend, I know you love Brazil the country and its National Team. Argentina, the country of my Grand Mother. Most of my family lives in Argentina, have worked there lovely country, beautiful people, a total screw up, like Brazil, great football players. But as Brazil they need a special player to lift them, Pele, Maradona, Neymar and Messi, without them they are great players but average teams.
That's the difference between them and the Europeans, great players who form great teams.
If you want to understand what I mean, take a look at the U21 European Championship, which just finished. Germany's team was the least talented. The best U21, like Haverzt, Musiala for example are playing for the top team and could not play. A blue colour team, grinding it out, game after game, after game. The final was a grinder par excellences. So friking German football, like the 2014 final and they just grounded the far more talented team of Portugal into the ground. Italy has that ability, Spain, too. The Dutch, French, Belgians and England no.

Hungary/Germany was a typical grinder game, ugly, exiting, one opportunity or two and they had to be taken, slugging it out. Two boxer in the middle of the ring, clinch and throwing blows.
Hungary deserved better, but than there is still a CR7.

France has come out as individuals, full of themselfs, not a team, a team in defense, but that's it

My bet is on Italy and Spain, they can be brilliant and they are known to be able to slug it out.

Germany, well we are now talking about the dark horse of all dark horses. It can be brilliant, but it can be a serious slugger, it can take blow after blow and than dish out its own blows.
I like that, a lot.
Brilliant games, beautiful, great, you show that you have it, but than always come those games were you have to slug it out, grind.
They built the team.
That is football.
Love it

 

Chile / Paragauy will be a rough game, they play hard

 

I agree with most of what you said, but not with your evaluation of Brazil and Argentina as exclusively depending on Neymar, Pelé, Maradona, and Messi.

The case of Brazil:

Brazil is no longer entirely dependent on Neymar and is still a good team without him, but you're right that for this current team to win a World Cup (or even this Copa América) they do need Neymar.

However, where I don't agree is that Brazil wouldn't have won without Pelé. They actually proved that they could. They won in 1962 with Pelé barely playing; got injured right at the start. They had Mané Garrincha, remember? Arguably better than Pelé... didn't have a stellar career like Pelé because of alcoholism, but in 1962, he lifted Brazil to the Cup. Not to forget the other outstanding players, Gilmar, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos, Didi, Vavá... one of the best teams, ever.

And the Brazilian team of 1970 was arguably the best team the game has ever seen since the creation of the game a century and a half ago (158 years to be precise). Sure, that team was made even better for having Pelé, but they would have won the 1970 Cup easily without Pelé too, given that they were phenomenal in most positions. Remember Jairzinho? Rivelino? Tostão? Carlos Alberto? Gérson? Piazza? Félix? Nope, that team did not depend on Pelé to lift them. They were already up in the stratosphere.

They beat my Italy 4-1 in the final... total domination. That team was unstoppable, and not just because of Pelé (who did play great, but they could play without him almost just as well).

Brazil also won the 1994 and the 2002 World Cups, without Pelé or Neymar.

In 1994 they had Taffarel, Bebeto, Dunga, Raí, the great Romário, Cafú...

In 2002 they had Lúcio, Roberto Carlos, the great Ronaldo, Rivaldo, the great Ronaldinho...

And this, not even considering the fantastic 1982 team, which did not win the World Cup but was also one of the best teams ever fielded in the history of soccer, with Sócrates, Falcão, and the great Zico...

Oh boy, you're clearly underestimating Brazilian soccer. Yes, they have had great teams, and have not always depended on one star player.

---------

Yes, Argentina is a lovely country, no doubt. I've visited a few times and was impressed.

And no, I don't agree with what you said about Argentina, Maradona, and Messi either, and they proved it too, by winning the 1978 World Cup with no Maradona, and no Messi. Remember Kempes? Passarella? Luque? OK, they weren't unstoppable (better proof, we beat them 1-0 in group phase), and OK, they bought their way into the final via corruption (that 6-0 against Peru was one of the most despicable scandals in the history of soccer; otherwise an undefeated Brazil would have advanced to the final instead of Argentina - they went instead to the third place match where they beat us 2-1 to finish undefeated), but still, whatever happened, Argentina did win that Cup, without Maradona or Messi. And even when they did win with Maradona in 1986, they weren't a one-man team either. They still had Passarella, Batista, etc., and had Burruchaga (who scored the winning goal against you in the final, remember?)

I think you're badly underestimating the history of South American soccer. Sure, their current teams aren't as good as some of the teams of the past, but these things go up and down, and Brazil and Argentina will always be world-class soccer powerhouses, and they are just as good a powerhouse as any European country, including your Germany (remember, you have 4 Cups but Brazil has 5 - you had your share of defeats to Brazil - remember 2002? - and Argentina (remember 1986?) even though you also had your wins against them - including the 7-1).

 

Paraguay so far beating Chile 1-0, could have been 2-0 after an incredible missed opportunity late in first half. They did have 5 opportunities against 1 for Chile, who are not playing well at all; this pitiful display by Chile may very well change my calculation regarding who is best for Brazil to face in the quarterfinals.

 

Chile committed a scandalous penalty. LOL, how can they even complain to the ref after that??? The defender Medel committed no fewer than three fouls in the same play, inside the box: he pulled the Paraguayan back (more like yanked him out of the play), then not content with that, hit him in the face with his arm pushing him to the ground, and topped it all by committing a handball too. And then he had the nerve of complaining to the ref for the call, LOL. Got a yellow card for it. This was the clearest penalty both tournaments considered, so far.

Paraguay took it expertly, 2-0. Chile incredibly disappointing tonight. Paraguay continues to play well. They are a tough team. Chile looks apathetic, like they don't care what seed they get, since they've advanced already - but then, like I said, it's not impossible that they'll get Brazil. One would expect that they'd try to avoid the host/best team of the tournament so far, but nope, they seem totally indifferent, not even trying.

 

Chile subbed in a couple of new blood, and they are trying a bit harder now, but they have only 20 minutes to erase a 0-2 deficit and it's not looking like they'll do it. This will be Chile's first defeat in 2021 and the first time they concede 2 goals in 2021.

 

For me, clear penalty for Chile now, but after a long, long VAR review they said no penalty. They said the ball hit the player's head first, then the hand. I don't think so. I think it hit the hand, period (the defender actually punched out the ball). I don't really understand how the VAR missed that. Oh well.

 

But yes, when ever they were able to form a team, use the brilliance of their players, take the individual egoism out of them, they had brilliant teams.
Forgive me to have used Pele. Brazil has had a ton of exceptional player and you named them, they still have, by the dozen.
They were brilliant, Argentina and Brazil, the measurement for everybody, because they had a team which involved guys like Messi, Renaldo, Neymar and so on. You can have all that brilliance, its about the team.
Today you take those brilliant players out, neutralize them, they are just averageL
Let me think of one player, Germany, who had any brilliance, like the South Americans, the best I can come up is Beckenbauer, but he is already a strech

 

Chile is getting its ars kicked

 

Full Time, Paraguay 2-0 Chile. Bolivia now officially eliminated. Paraguay replaces Chile as 2nd in Group A. Chile falls to 3rd and since Uruguay has a game in hand and Chile has finished all 4 games, Chile may end up 4th depending on the result of the Uruguay vs. Paraguay game on Monday. Now, neither Argentina nor Paraguay can finish 4th. Brazil's adversary will be either Uruguay or Chile.

A win or draw against Paraguay puts Uruguay ahead of Chile (if a win, thanks to more points; if a draw, thanks to GD), while a loss gets Chile to be ahead of them.

Argentina faces Bolivia next and should beat them easily, thus winning Group A.

 

Well, if you take all brilliant players out, any team will be average, by definition, since you'll have done away with the outstanding outliers, so the average of quality will fall.

Yes, "Der Kaiser" Franz Beckenbauer was brilliant. A legend! But you also had Gerd Müller, Lothar Matthäus, Miroslav Klose, Sepp Maier, Oliver Khan, etc.

 

OK, since we are talking section nostalgia, let's remember the great Italian players as well:

I'm particularly fond of Paolo Maldini. My favorite player ever. Outstanding for my AC Milan, and now he is an administrator there. Three generations of Maldinis... his father was the great Cesare Maldini who also played for Milan, and currently his son Daniel is a promising young player for us, too. I love the Maldinis...

In no particular order, let's remember Gianluigi Buffon (still active but practically retired), Roberto Baggio, Franco Baresi, Andrea Pirlo, Fabio Cannavaro, Alessandro Del Piero, Giuseppe Meazza whose name is celebrated in our stadium - we call it San Siro for the neighborhood but actually the official name is Stadio Giuseppe Meazza - he played mostly for Inter but played for AC Milan and Juve too. He was arguably Italy's best player of all time, nicknamed Il Balilla (or The Little Boy because he first joined Inter's senior team so young at age 17, and promptly scored two goals in his debut).

Continuing: Francesco Totti, the legendary Dino Zoff, Silvio Piola, Paolo Rossi, Gianfranco Zola, Genaro Gattuso, Filippo Inzaghi, Antonio Conte (many of these former greats are currently managers), Claudio Gentile, Marcello Lippi, Luca Toni, Sandro Mazzola... so many great players! I'll stop.

Well, our current Squadra Azzurra is more like what you were saying... a team, more than individual stars. Our best current player, maybe the only one who can be rightfully called a star, is Marco Verratti. And of course we have the veterans Chiellini and Bonucci. But otherwise, we have a bunch of very solid younger players, and I do like our team quite a lot, but our whole is greater than the sum of our parts.

 

I keep seeing most people predicting Italy's defeat to the Belgians.

However, betting markets have Italy as second favorites after France, and The Telegraph predicts that Italy will win it all, beating England in the final:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/euro-2020-knockout-stage-predictions-165241107.html
(this link if or Yahoo Sports but the article is copied and pasted from The Telegraph - which is behind a paywall. The real Yahoo Sports prediction is that Belgium will it all, beating England in the final).

I guess the easy bracket increased England's chances. I do have them beating Germany 1-0 in my prediction.

I'm really afraid of Belgium. I hope The Telegraph is right rather than all the people who quote Belgium as the favorites.

Weird to have a day without soccer today. I'll watch game 7 of Tampa Bay Lightening vs. New York Islanders (ice hockey semifinal, decisive game) at 8PM tonight, but I miss soccer... got used to having several games per day every day for one and a half weeks... Resuming tomorrow, though, with my Italy playing against Austria.

 

Yes Germany had with Beckenbauer, Gerd Mueller Netzer Maier Breitner and so a overload of brilliant players. So to speak a golden era.
But than it became a more average team of very good players, whos mark was the staying power, never quit. That's were the "never count out the German's " comes from. Yes Mathaeuse was rather good, Klose, Poldi and the tradition of great goal keepers
If you played against Germany, no matter what the score, you were in it for 90 minutes and what ever OT.
That is what won them the 2014 title. Yes Neuer brilliant, but it was those relentless worker like Lahm and Schweinsteiger, who always drove, pushed the team, beyond expectations.
2018 you saw the opposite, a team split, involved in several scandals with political nature, no fight, no nothing, no team. They had the players.
Todays team, is like 2014, or has the potential, but with 2 diamonds, this time they have Radio Mueller, Kimmich as the relentless workers, which have had the luck of getting rejuvenated by Flick and Ruediger, Havertz ( Diamond ) by Tuchel.
Group F was just right. 2 super star teams and a defensive fighting team. You could sea that team jell.
The diamonds, who could become world stars, Havertz, just 21. When Tuchel took over he started to blossom in England, before he hugged the bench. Might have been a language and culture problem, he is just 21, a kid. Having a German coach away from home has done him rather good. With Tuchel that guy will be more than brilliant.
Than there is the baby, just turned 18, youngest goal scorer of the Bundesliga, did not even have a pro contract, when he scored, one of Flick's protegees, Musaila.
But they do not mean the team, like Messi, Renaldo or Neymar
Brazil, Argentina are Neymar and Messi, nothing more.

 

England v Germany my 2 scenarios. A boring slugging game, were either team could win. If England tries to open up, they will get overrun like Portugal.
Advantage Germany it placed 2. in the most difficult group and had to slug it out, that is team building and gives confidence.
England had a very easy group and had crappy games, never built any momentum.
But there is that danger, its a derby, it could light England's fire, but than Scotland did not light it.
If it is a slugging game Germany will win it by 1 score, 1:2 or 0:1. If England opens up like Portugal, they will be overrun, 2-3 scores difference

 

England will probably choke either after pulling off an upset like knocking out Germany, England's own personal rival which isn't felt by Germany as they've got their own rival with someone else and so forth, or England will choke trying to knock out Germany and be knocked out by Germany and even in the unlikely event where England actually go on to win the final, which is not bloody likely, it's not a World Cup.

 

Some Italian greats of the past I forgot to mention: Alberto Gilardini, Alessandro Nesta, Gianlucca Zambrotta, Daniele De Rossi, Claudio Marchisio, and Christian Vieri.

 

And five more, then I'm done: Giampiero Boniperti, Giacinto Facchetti, and Gianni Rivera, all three old-timers, and the more recent Giuseppe Bergomi and Marco Tardelli. Just getting warmed-up for the R16 today. Forza Azzurri!!!

 

Wales v Denmark could go either way.
I'll be pleased for whoever wins this game.

 

Big chance for Bale goes wide.

 

Wales looking impressive so far.