Breakthrough in hydrogen capture and storage

Discussion in 'Science' started by Monash, Nov 10, 2021.

  1. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    The link below is to a YouTube video on a private company called Plasma Kinetics a private company that may have cracked the problem of capturing, storing and transporting bulk hydrogen in a manner that lets it compete with battery technology for long distance transport, energy storage and commercial power applications.

    It really seems like its one of those rare tipping point breakthroughs that could change the world. Interested in getting other peoples opinion. (The hard core technical details start at about the 5 minute mark but the background info is really good for 'setting the scene'.)

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  2. robot

    robot Active Member

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    I am very doubtful that it will work. Here is the website of the company https://plasmakinetics.com/
    It contains this sentence
    This makes no sense to me. Smokestacks should not contain any hydrogen. It is CO2 that is a greenhouse gas. It would take energy to extract anything from the smokestack.
     
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    But the steam (water) Does contain hydrogen
     
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  4. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Technically steam is water that has been split (by heat) into it its component atoms hydrogen and oxygen. So as long as both enter a flue at above 100C and remains at that temperature until they exit it hydrogen could be extracted. Personally however I think it would be easier with regards to this technology to simply use conventional electrolysis as the primary source of the hydrogen particularity if the electric source is non carbon based.

    Point is extraction of hydrogen from fossil fuel waste is just one potential sourse. Any source of hydrogen will do. And the source is only one third of the problem this technology potentially solves the other two are of course storage and transport (to its usage site).
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
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  5. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would think that if steam were composed of separate hydrogen and oxygen, it would become highly explosive. But I agree, there is no free lunch. If it was easy, we'd all be driving water powered cars.
     
  6. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    In physics steam is defined as water in a gaseous state which means that the atoms of hydrogen and oxygen are separated. At high temperatures (above boiling point) combining the two doesn't produce much of a reaction because re-composition can only occur at the fringes of the heat source, so there's too much heat around and too few 'free' atoms of either element to cause any problems. The re-composition will release energy but not at a rate or enough volume to be noticed. Combine 'cold' hydrogen and oxygen and yes, things go 'boom'. At least that's my understanding. Any high school chemistry teacher who cares to correct me can do so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  7. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Not saying you are wrong but you might need to wiki this
     
  8. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Been a long time since highschool chemistry for me, but I'm pretty sure that steam occurs on the molecular level, not the atomic level. So, the component parts of steam are H2O molecules.
     
  9. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Same here so you could be right. But as I remember a molecule of H2O is just that: two atoms of hydrogen chemically bound to one atom of oxygen and also the simplest molecule you can form. After molecular hydrogen (H2) and molecular oxygen (O2) molecules I think H20 is the simplest molecule in the universe.

    That said I also remember being taught that combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms to form a water molecule is a highly exothermic reaction i.e. doing so releases heat (which is why the two work so well together in rockets), while splitting them apart is endothermic i.e. it requires an external energy input. Which is why you get combustion when you do combine them but also why pouring water on a fire extinguishes it. The process splits the water molecules apart again (briefly) but at a thermal cost.

    Happy to be corrected.
     
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  10. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_splitting

    In thermolysis, water molecules split into their atomic components hydrogen and oxygen. For example, at 2200 °C about three percent of all H2O are dissociated into various combinations of hydrogen and oxygen atoms, mostly H, H2, O, O2, and OH. Other reaction products like H2O2 or HO2 remain minor. At the very high temperature of 3000 °C more than half of the water molecules are decomposed, but at ambient temperatures only one molecule in 100 trillion dissociates by the effect of heat.[14] The high temperatures and material constraints have limited the applications of this approach.

    2200 degrees C is approximately 3200 degrees F and that splits only 3 percent of the molecules.

    3000 degrees C is 5430 degrees F, about half are split.

    But then those atoms have to be separated to prevent them from quickly recombining. Not an easy process.

    I suppose the point is that steam is mostly water molecules at a gaseous state, not separate hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
     
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  11. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I also clearly remember the process for separating hydrogen from oxygen in water molecules, involving charged electrodes. No significant heating or steam was involved, if I recall.
     
  12. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Well anyway back to the key point, they've made the claim so the material discovered must be able to trap dissociated hydrogen from flew gas albeit I don't know how easy it would be to do that a low temperature and in the presence of all the other waste gasses etc. As an amateur I would think plain old electrolysis would be the easier way to do it. Anyway the key takeaway I got was that the mechanism for charging/releasing/recharging it (green laser light?) is far simpler & easier to manage than the way its done with most metal hydrides.That's it strength the ease of reuse.

    If it is economic and practical as they say I can see it beating batteries for long distance goods travel i.e. trucking and shipping and industrial bulk storage if not for consumer use e.g. cars and home batteries. So perhaps we'll see a combo of the two. I suppose those of us who like home fireplaces and heaters could get a hydrogen powered replacement for gas ones installed then a truck would just stop by on a schedule and replace the old storage unit with a new one.

    Lastly the recycling aspect is also interesting but I believe you can do that with all metal hydride.The key point is how much cheaper it really is to do with this system than with others. Also would it really be economically viable to harness the waste deuterium. And of course there is storage efficiency i.e. how much hydrogen can you trap per kilo of metal hydride used. I can't see it being significantly less than other hydrides if only because you'd think that would have been mentioned in the video if that was true, but then the producers only appear to have access to open source material so they may not know. I may do more digging and see what I can find out.
     
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  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    heard about this, was banned for a bit by the US due to national security concerns

    now just has restrictions on sales

    probably fears of drones going long distance on the cheap
     
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  14. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not sure about this one. I suppose a person could use their personal residence as the address for a green energy company, but it sure feels wrong. I'm not a physicist, but the idea that his can be used for massive amounts of energy also seems misplaced. I wonder if there is any of that Solyndra money left over? This company could probably use some.
    [​IMG]

    and a google earth of the address:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Yes that's why I linked to the 'Undecided' review. The channel tends not to 'push' any of the new technologies it covers but instead just reviews the potential pros and cons. In this case if it works as claimed (and as well) the potential is huge. But I checked before posting and already knew it was a private company, which I admit did set off some alarm bells if only because I can think of several major conglomerates that would jump at the chance to invest in this tech, even if the owner didn't want to release their majority shareholding. But I haven't heard of any major corporate interest.

    That being the case the next couple of years should tell everyone if its all smoke and mirrors or not because at some point the soon the company has to start releasing products for assessment by potential buyers.
     
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  16. robot

    robot Active Member

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    What steam? Smoke is not steam. Smoke is a mixture of air, CO2 and soot. Plus a few other chemicals from impurities in the coal. Very little steam.
     
  17. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Ain’t all smoke mate

    upload_2021-11-20_20-58-26.jpeg
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I probably misunderstand what you are saying, but 100c doesn't separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. That's just the point where liquid water undergoes the phase change to gas.

    As I understand it:

    Separating hydrogen from water would start happening after 2200 C.

    Temperatures that hot can exist for a short time in electric generation turbines. And, no hydrocarbon fuel is perfectly dry of water, so finding hydrogen in the first short portion of the exit stream before cooling begins might be possible.

    That's an impressively nasty environment for trying to gather hydrogen!
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Woops, I see at least one site that claims exit temperatures can get as high as 2300F - which is obviously WAY lower than the 2300C required to break apart water.

    So, I guess I'm back to being doubtful.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    True. Plus, there are the intermediate stages - before anything gets emitted through a cooling tower or smoke stack. They could insert a collector at the location most optimal for their process.

    However, I missed any explanation of why they talk about emissions as a good place to collect hydrogen.

    As per above, I doubt it's because there are hydrogen molecules there due to water being split by heat or whatever.

    If this company is successful at this it would be outstanding, of course.
     
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  21. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    An interesting find, but I couldn’t help but notice the part of the video that states that it violates national security, by using military-grade materials and technology. That means it isn’t going to go anywhere but to be lost to history. It’s a real shame, but there are separate standards for what is permissible in civilian tech vs military-grade tech. And, what is typical in cases like this is that the military won’t use it, and civilians won’t be allowed to use it, so it will go away, “disappeared” one way or another. Which is a real shame.
     
  22. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    You can get hydrogen by taking water and then running an electrical current through it, catching the hydrogen with a dome above the water, which catches the rising hydrogen atoms.
     
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  23. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow!

    I am sure that fans of Stanley Meyer will be paying attention to this technology as it develops.




    Stan Meyers water powered Buggy
    879,402 views
    Apr 10, 2007




    Thank you for that excellent and simple explanation for this technology.



    http://www.theorionproject.org/en/documents/Stan_Meyer_Full_Data.pdf


    http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2009/05/orion-project-update-stan-meyer-water.html


    Orion Project Update: Stan Meyer Water Powered Car
    SATURDAY, MAY 23, 2009



     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Leave it to you to propose a perpetual motion machine - lol!!
     
  25. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hopefully we soon will be. Imagine having a machine that could convert water into fuel. Unlimited possibilities.
     

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