Solid state hydrogen technology could replace electric vehicles

Apartments are going to need to move to supporting charging electric cars. Plus, places of work, shopping centers, etc., are installing charging. I'm sure you can search out places where charging is expensive today, but there is no chance that is going to last.

I have no idea exactly what you are paying for.

As I've pointed out, here in the US there are companies that will install solar FOR FREE if you sign a contract with them to share in the LOWER cost of electricity.

In other words, it's an immediate benefit to the customer without the customer laying out any up front cost.

As above, I agree that apartments are going to have to change to provide charging capability, or their apartments are not going to be as attractive.

And, yes, the apartment building owner is undoubtedly not going to surrender the building roof to your solar project.

If some other apartment provided energy for less money, you may well choose to move.

As with ALL vehicles, it is not one size fits all. People do watch the cost of fuel, the cost and frequency of maintenance, and other factors in choosing the vehicle that is best for them.

Oil based vehicles are not going to just go away. But, every auto manufacturer believes in EVs enough to make a gigantic investment, and even promise that their car lines are going to be for EVs.[/QUOTE]
Suffice to say, manufacturers are only getting into the EV market because as from 2030, the sale of new ICE vehicles will be banned.

As for cost, the purchase price of a new EV is subsidized by the UK government. So that will have to be factored in when those end.

As for charging, I think the majority would like to plug in to their house socket, I mean, who would want to buy a kettle and plug it in to a socket from home and pay a premium to get a cup of tea? The average price per kWh at home is 14p, this article points out that charge point costs -

From 1 December, new prices will apply across the BP Pulse network. The cost per kWh of energy for subscribers has risen from 23p to 32p for the firm's standard public chargers (AC 43kW/DC 50kW) and from 29p to 38p for registered users.

The firm's fastest (150kW) devices will now cost 38p per kWh subscribers, 44p for registered users and 50p for pay-as-you-go users, while the slower 7kW units cost from 28p per kWh.

Meanwhile, Instavolt, which claims to be "the largest owner-operator of rapid DC charging stations in the UK", has announced a price hike from 40p per kWh to 45p – also effective from 1 December

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...arging-firms-raise-prices-energy-crisis-bites

I did read an article and I'm damn annoyed I didn't keep a copy of the link, that if the cost of buying and maintaining an EV exceeded a certain price per month, people can't afford them. And it means most people can't afford one.

But that's all by the by because with current technology, solar is just not feasible for me, current infrastructure, current costs etc.. EV's are simply not viable. This may change in time but I'll be in my sixties come 2030 so it's unlikely I'll get onto the EV bandwagon. No offence to EV supporters, I don't wish to take a step backwards.[/QUOTE]
I don't know costs of electricity in UK.

But, you aren't calculating a per mile fuel cost, which is the only rational metric.

In the US, the per mile fuel charge is lower for electric cars in the majority of regions.

Overall, it is still the case that auto manufacturers see EV as the direction the industry is going. There will be changes made in charging capability. Apartment building owners are starting to see electric outlets near where tenants park as an important option.

Auto companies believe people will choose EVs over gas or diesel at least for general personal transportation.

The highest volume vehicle in the US is the Ford F series trucks. The all electric version of the F-150 arrives in the coming spring. A new manufacturer, Rivian, is entering the market with an electric truck and an electric van. You can't buy their van, because Amazon has signed a contract with them for all the electric vans they can produce for years.
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The OP is about hydrogen. But, hydrogen is a battery. It is not a source. All hydrogen cars are and will be EVs. The electric power in the car will come from generating electricity from the hydrogen on board.

So, we're increasing the number of types of batteries - current batteries for EVs, high volume capacitors (coming), hydrogen (?).

 

The thing is, housing and streets were around well before the car. Then life changed with the advent of the car over the last 100 years to where we are today, and most of it is based on the vehicle being refuelled in a very short period of time with little inconvenience, as in, you just need to stop for 10 or 15 mins when passing a forecourt to fill up.

Hydrogen fits in with this, electric battery not so, unless, you slot the car battery out and slot a charged one in. So it's though there's this mad rush to transform 100 years of infrastructure or way of living within a decade or two.

So ICE vehicles will still have their place because of being unable to charge from home. Also, a 3 or 4 story apartment block means, 3 to 4 properties wanting a piece of the roof for what? Two or three solar panels each? And if the apartments are facing the wrong direction, and certainly in the North England / Southern Scotland, the efficiency is crap.

Inventors/designers need to get their thinking caps on.

 

We don't know what hydrogen fits, because it pretty much doesn't exist. There is one hydrogen vehicle on the market - the Toyota Mirai. It is only sold near where there are hydrogen stations - LA and SF. I know there are advancements, but hydrogen cars are pretty much hypothetical at present.

There IS a change in refueling. But, with EVs exceeding 300 or in some cases even 400 miles in range, with charging available at home and increasingly at work and shopping locations.

I agree that gas/diesel vehicles are not going to disappear. Besides usage patterns that benefit them, people know these vehicles and regardless of EV advantages people will tend to follow their experience. Getting people to change always, always takes time.

IMHO, apartment building owners are HIGHLY unlikely to share the roof with tenants. It would mean letting various teams of workmen drilling into the roof, new wiring, etc. An apartment owner would be insane to allow residents to do that. However, the apartment owner CAN integrate rooftop solar in the electrical source for all renters. Thus rent can be less (or renting can be more profitable) for those who go this direction. So, tenants will see the advantage indirectly.

I know of a homeowner in CT who saves money by signing a contract with a company that puts solar on their roof for FREE and then shares the cost reduction of electricity. CT is 41 degrees latitude and experiences continental weather effects coming out of NE USA and Canada.

People really don't know what is needed for solar. But, it doesn't matter for EVs. EVs are still cheaper to drive without any additional advantage of solar.

 

your quote: In the case of EV, everyone from Chevy and Ford to Porsche and Audi see EVs as their own future. that still isn't a good bet on e.v's. care companies have been wrong before. only the (buying public) will decide weither their bet on e.v.'s will pay off.

your quote: Public transit such as light rail has been using electricity for a long time. on come on! you know that light rail runs with power lines either above or in the rails, (not on batteries.)

your quote: The reason long haul trucking isn't on the cutting edge of EVs is not because electricity isn't strong enough really? can you just think of the profit these battery companies could make selling batteries to long hall trucking companies.?

your quote: And, the fact that there will continue to be applications for oil based vehicles does NOT say anything about the passenger car industry.
For homeowners, it means plugging in your car at night. now the home owner must take into account the cost of the charging station being bought & installed on their property. + the increase in the electric company bill who supplies electric to the home owner. will increase their bill. no offence ment. but you seem to like to forget the extra cost with all of this equipment and cost of the electric being supplied to the owner must be added to the cost of running a e.v..

your quote: For those who commute to businesses, EVs can be plugged in their, if the employees show serious interest. do you really thing the employer will just give away all that power to recharge the e.v's for (nothing?) they will charge the employee for the recharge. companies don't give anything away for free. imv.

your quote: For those who commute to businesses, EVs can be plugged in their, if the employees show serious interest. sorry, your wrong there. the solor panels were not producing power, and the turbines were (frozen solid). i'll find the stories for you and post that in my next post.

your post: Yes, I know political toadies to oil in Texas tried to blame wind power, but that was a pack of lies - well known at this point. ok, i'll post my sources on this, will you? this is interesting. i hope to have mine up to night.

your post: NO. The panels are supplied as part of the deal. In fact, they usually continue to be the property of the company that installs for free and shares the cost savings with you. oh, so now the home owner owns (nothing?) so this is a "rental deal?" that imv makes the deal even worse. so you pay rental on the equipment for ever? who pays for repairs? if you will please show me a advertisement showing this deal. i would be interested in reading about a company doing this.

thanks, again i'm really enjoying this.

 

as i said here is the 1st source on texas wind and solar failure last winter. Green energy main cause of Texas’ power woes (bostonherald.com) i've got more coming.

 

and one more, Fact check: The causes for Texas’ blackout go well beyond wind turbines | Reuters i have more if you need them.

 

My Mrs and I are in a block of 4 privately owned apartments, two on the ground floor beside each other, then the other two on top. We live in one of the top ones. The agreement in the deeds is that any roof repairs is shared by the 4 home owners.

As I've mentioned before, inputting the direction of the house, the location in the UK, when the house is occupied through day etc.. solar panels over their lifespan is -£1,805. So to produce the electric, it would cost me, there's no pay back. Then I would have to lash an extension cable out of the top window, across the front garden and then pavement, and then across the road where we all park. Then on top of that, the resident below me would be entitled to half the roof space above our heads.

So a vehicle with a fuel source, such as hydrogen or diesel makes sense. To put a charge point on the pavement (sidewalk) for an EV, do people have to step over a wire? The pavement is 3 feet wide.

 

I have heard that something like this is already in use in Israel but
BigMedia will not touch the topic.

 

Yes, governor Abbot, other Texas politicians, and pro-oil interests LIED about the causes of the Texas blackout.

 

I already pointed out that individual apartment residents are highly unlikely to have any right to install solar in a meaningful way.

If you can't figure out how to charge your EV where you live, then consider charging it at work. Or, consider not buying an EV right now.

 

LOL - that's pure conspiracy theory. "BigMedia" couldn't hide this kind of stuff even if they wanted to.

But, why would they even want to?

 

I would have to drive to Tesco's and hope to use one of their two charge points, then wander about for however long it takes to charge.

I work in construction, I use a van. If I go to a new build, I would have to plug into the petrol generator. If it's a customer's house where I could charge, not sure how they would feel about that, and again, you can't charge from a third of houses due to no driveways etc..

So yes, I wouldn't buy an EV now, and even in the future, they're not a viable replacement.

 

I'm fine with that. I've NEVER suggested that EVs are ready to provide the full needs of all vehicle owners.

I'm just pointing out that EVERY auto manufacturer is moving toward electric vehicles. And, issues such as charging are being addressed.

As a sidelight, I might ask how many miles you drive to your work site. I don't know many construction workers or contractors who commute a couple hundred miles to their job site and back every day. Regardless of what powers their rig, that is just a LOT of time out of the work day.

What do you think of this:
https://rivian.com/r1t

This is a new company. They are producing vehicles today, and have raised over $10B for expanding production. They have more working capital than any other automaker in the world. They build a van, but Amazon signed a contract with them to essentially buy every van they can produce, so the general public won't see it for a couple years.

 

As the sale of new ICE vehicles in the UK will be banned from 2030, yes, manufacturers are now concentrating on EV's.

I drive approx 38 miles to work, and then 38 miles back. Once working, I often go to the suppliers, or do a slight detour to the suppliers when commuting, but both puts miles onto the day's journey. I would guess 90 to 100 miles per day, normally 5 days a week, sometimes 6 to 7 times. My works van does 28mpg, so sometimes I use my car if I leave my equipment on a job as it's more economical.

I looked at new vans, but they're nearly double the price. Here's a similar van to mine -

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vans/new-movano/electric.html

At £55,000 then plus vat at 20%, I would just never be able to afford £66,000. Top speed of 75mph is not great and biggest thing is, you can't tow with them.

That Rivian is too small.

Do they do hydrogen vans and can you tow with them? I'll Google it.

Edit - - https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vans/vivaro/electric-hydrogen.html

 

Hydrogen cars ARE EVs. They just use some form of hydrogen storage instead of directly storing electricity in a battery. Battery technology is a gigantic issue - a phenomenal opportunity today. Thus there is huge investment in improving charging time, charging overhead (the loss due to charging), the kind of batteries available, etc.

Hydrogen cars have a device that uses hydrogen plus oxygen to generate electricity, which then goes to the electric motors that drive the vehicle.

Yes, the cost of a new technology automobile is high. That will come down as auto manufacturers are paid off for their R&D, volumes go up, and competition starts taking hold.

 

I suspect that $/mile is still going to be important.

In California it’s 4.4 cents per mile for the Tesla and 29 cents per mile for the Toyota hydrogen Mirai.
https://www.autoweek.com/drives/a33651995/bye-bye-long-term-mirai/

Gas prices in CA hover around $4.50/US gallon. If your car gets 30 miles per US gallon that means the $/mile for fuel is $4.50/30 = $0.15/mile for fuel.

Tesla does WAY better than that at $0.044/mile according to Autoweek.

Someone should probably check the math.

The equation may be different in UK, as petrol in the UK is way more expensive due to taxation. Plus, I don't know what electricity costs in UK.

 

Yes I know, and only take a few minutes to refuel, so a viable idea.

 

I did the maths earlier and I only benefit from the fuel saving after 245,000 miles because the cost difference between the EV and ICE versions wiped out the benefit. And that's at electric at home prices.



EV's are approx 3 miles to a kWh.

 

That isn't a comparison.

You need to compare the fuel cost for a relatively efficient gas car with the fuel cost for an EV.

I did that above for here in California, USA.

You need to do that for London, or whatever.

 

It is, I used the data off the manufacturers website for the electric vehicle, the kWh price off the map for my area and exactly the price I pay for diesel from my local forecourt. I took the exact mpg off my vans computer display on the dash. I took the price difference between the vehicle's new price and divided that by the fuel saving. And let's be honest, the range stated by manufacturers never matches reality, so the electric van has been given an advantage in the calculations. If it wasn't for the government grant, there would be about £6,000 to add to the cost of the EV, making 245,000 miles too low. If I used the electric price at charge points, 245,000 again is too low.

In the UK, the average annual vehicle mileage is 12,000 a year, so 245,000 miles is just over 20 years. In that 20 year period, would the battery pack be changed, and at what cost.

So all in all, EV's for me are just not financially viable. Then, what happens when tax per mile is implemented? But my saving grace is, I will be retired before then.

The prediction is, costs will come down. Well, that's just a theory, and as independent garages have to invest in new equipment to deal with the battery side of things, you are stuck with dealership garages at dealership prices.

None of the above is made up, it's just simply reality.

 

Those that can afford to and have the space to charge them, are buying EV's. Many cannot simply afford them.

Hydrogen will make the refuelling more convenient, but costs and infrastructure puts them in the same boat.

 

One again you do NOT show a comparison of dollars per mile in fuel costs between an EV and a petrol vehicle of good mileage and comparable size/design.

You are avoiding the fact that EVs are cheaper to drive.

I know there are other issues. I've pointed them out.

 

I'm not, I've shown the comparison cost per mile, EV's, currently, are cheaper to refuel then their ICE counterparts.

But to get the saving, you have to spend 245,000 miles, minimum, upfront. And as grants disappear and tax per mile are introduced, you have to part with more money up front.

I thought that was obvious.

 

Interesting.

I haven't see that in what you've posted - type of gas car/mileage, the EV, etc.

Obviously, EVs cost more today. So, I'm sure it would take time to get ahead.

Maybe I'll do this.

 

OK, here's my analysis based on the Ford F-150 pickup. I chose that vehicle because there is a 2022 version of this truck that is fully EV. So, we don't have to match car sizes, etc. We can make a much more direct comparison.

I think a new gas powered 2021 Ford f-150 pickup costs about $37,000 for the rock bottom version.
https://www.edmunds.com/ford/f-150/

The 2022 version may have a price increase - I don't know.

You can reserve a 2022 Ford F-150 Lightening today for about $40,000
https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2022/reservation-information/#:~:text=time of order.-,The entry model starts at $39,974 MSRP (commercial-oriented),$39,974 up to around $90,474.

This vehicle may also have a price increase, as if you buy a reservation today, Ford does not fully promise not to change the price of the vehicle between now and delivery.

So, the difference in price is may be $4,000, and I believe that is before any state or national rebates are considered - my intent is to ignore that aspect, though it may cover for the possibility that Ford raises the EV price.

An F-150 gets about 20 miles per US gallon. Gas in California costs about $4.50. So, fuel cost per mile is $4.50/20 = about $.23 per mile.

The EV version uses 9.6 KWH to get 300 miles. In California a kilowatt hour costs $.20. This means it would cost 9.6 X $.20 = about $20 to refill. That means fuel cost is $20/300 miles, or about $.07 per mile.

So, driving the gas version costs $.16/mile more in fuel cost.

So, I think the $4,000 difference in price between the gas and EV versions gets made up in $4,000/$0.16 = 25,000 miles.

Making up the purchase price difference in 25,000 on fuel cost alone can't be seen as bad news!

And, beyond that, maintenance of EVs is cheaper due to almost no moving parts, no oil, no air cleaner system, no fuel system with pump/filter, no carburetor or injector system, no radiator/water pump and related gaskets, belts, no drive train/transmission, etc., etc.

As an aside, you asked about towing. Ford says the EV Ford F-150 can tow 10,000 lbs.

Also, if you have a power outage at your home you can use the 9.6 KWH to provide electricity for your home, through the home power station. Just plug in your truck as if you were charging it. Yes - not so easy if you live in an apartment without opportunity for charging,

And, you can use that electricity on your job site, if there doesn't happen to be a working generator there. The F-150 Lightning has 11 built-in power outlets in handy locations, such as the truck bed, the front trunk (where there is space freed by removing the gas engine), inside the cab, etc. These are 110 in the US - I would presume that would be different if sold in UK.


Anyway, I think competition and sales volume will bring down EV prices.