pre-legal advice

I'm just looking for input. This will be run by a legal professional before any action is taken, Im really just looking for a sounding board as it appears it may escalate to that. I figure since lawyers are human and humans are fallible, it couldn't hurt to get 'mass input' from regular folks beforehand to cover my bases.

I'm being charged with someone else's fairly large hospital bill that I didn't consent to be responsible for. I had previously agreed to pay some minor emergency room fees for a loved one who couldn't afford them, and so I was linked in the ER's patient contact/payment system. However, all the previous times they had called me to gain my consent to be billed for the procedures.

Before the treatment in question, I told my loved one that I could no longer afford to cover their ER bills, so my loved one would need to figure something else out for payment if going to the ER. The next time my loved one went to the ER, they told the ER that they were being covered on someone else's insurance. The ER treated them and did not call me to ask for my consent to be billed for it. But several months later, I started getting notices from the hospital that I was being charged for the bill. I called the hospital and told them that I never consented to be billed for this procedure and the hospital told me that they just needed my loved one to fill out some peperwork and it would all "probably" just be covered by insurance.

My loved one has since been unable to make any headway with the hospital or insurance in figuring this out, and now I've been sent to collections for it.

It sounds to me like the hospital did not do its due diligence in confirming that my loved one was covered by the insurance they were provided, and has decided to try to fix their mistake by piling the bill back on to me.

My big question is: can the hospital really (legally) charge me for someone else's procedure that I didn't consent to be charged for simply because I had consented to pay for previous procedures?

All input welcome.

 

Unless you are someone big, if you sign even once for any reason, they can use it as an excuse to charge you forever. I believe they charged you simply because you paid before. The medical industry is not known for customer service when it comes to payments.

The real problem is the damage to your credit history for 7 years - not the costs. (I'm assuming your "loved one" did not run up a bill to 6 figures.) At this point the hospital has already sold your debt to someone else for 10 cents on the dollar.

You can lessen the damage by agreeing to pay it off in full. However, never pay it off in part. This will reset the 7 year time frame. A good lawyer which might actually get this fixed will cost thousands of dollars. The bad thing is that you let this slide into collections. That's why it's going to be even harder to fix.

Good luck.

 

If it costs thousands of dollars, I'll still be ahead...

I never actually signed anything tho.

 

I have no paperwork. I never signed anything. The extent of my involvement was providing payment info over the phone and consenting to be billed, which did not happen for this particular bill.

 

I'm not a lawyer but if they have no document signed by you and are basing their stance on a previous phone call to you for a 'separate' happening I feel you might be in a good position. Good luck.

 

I studied some law so I'm not an expert but I would be very, very shocked if the hospital can hold you liable for this debt if they do not have your consent as "responsible" party in the financial section of their forms.

In order to know how to assist you, it would help to provide this information.

1. Did you sign anything accepting financial responsibility for your loved one's debts?
2. Prior to the procedures for which you say you are not responsible, did you contact the hospital to have your name removed as "Guarantor"?
3. Do you and your loved one live in the same state? This will help me research this matter further.
4. Do you absolutely trust your loved one? (I'm sorry to be so blunt). Is it possible that person isn't being completely truthful?
5. If you name is listed as guarantor, you should be able to get a history of bills and sort out which ones you agreed to and the others.
6. Most hospitals have some kind of financial assistance programs. It's just a form one fills out and takes a few weeks to get a response.

I don't know where you are located, but generally speaking, a collection agency can't force you to pay a debt unless they can provide solid evidence that it's your debt. They can't provide that if you never signed anything stating that you would take full financial responsibility for those debts.

If you have given your loved one your SSN, it is imperative that you pull your credit report to make sure there is nothing us happening with your credentials.

I would recommend that you put a "freeze" on your Social Security number so you can be notified of any inquires or changed immediately.

I would also suggest that you write a formal letter to that hospital to permanently remove your name from your loved one's records so this can't be compounded and dumped on you in the future. You want to take your name off EVERYTHING as soon as possible.

Also, a collection agency rep can't call you if you request not to be called. They will probably sound harsh but it's just to be intimidating because most people are afraid to talk to collectors. Don't worry about it. They are paid to be jerks. Just keep a note pad handy and get the name, ID number (if any) and name of the caller's supervisor.

I would also recommend that you go to the national registry on the FCC and add your phone number. I think it' last for 1-2 years but I can't recall at the moment.

https://www.donotcall.gov/

Once you add your number to the list, NOBODY can call you for telemarketing. Collection agencies can call but only during certain hours. Once you've notified them (in writing) that you dispute this debt, they have to investigate it and can't call you during that time frame.

NOTE: Collection agencies make money by bullying people to send a small amount each month. Don't do that. Once you send them anything (even $1) you have effectively accepted that the debt is legitimately yours.

Good luck. Please let me know if you need any additional information.

 

P.S. There is a short window of opportunity to dispute a debt in collections. Do NOT ignore it. Notify them as soon as your can that you dispute this debt.

 

1- I'm fairly certain that I never signed to be 'guarantor.' I did sign as 'guardian' once to allow admission for a minor, but at that time my loved one was a minor and covered by someone else's insurance, so I wasn't signing to accept financial responsibility. By the time my loved one went in for this particular treatment, they were no longer a minor.
2- I did not call the hospital to be removed as 'guarantor' because, to my knowledge, I never was 'guarantor'
3- we both live in WA state
4- I trust my loved ones intent- as in, they would not deliberately try to screw me over or take my money or saddle me with their debt. However I do not trust my loved ones ability to communicate properly or understand how things work. Not now, anyway. I believe my loved one told the hospital that insurance was to be charged, not me. But its likely that all they would've had to do is say 'OK' and begin treatment and my loved one would have trusted that meant it was all handled. Admittedly, I might've thought the same thing at the time, I don't go to the hospital and I've payed all my own medical bills out of pocket. I don't know how medical insurance is processed.
5- the collections agency is sending me an itemized list with dates, but I don't have them yet
6- I always assumed these were for people who couldn't afford their own medical bills. But if this whole thing is how hospitals normally operate, then I guess that would include pretty much everyone...

The hospital told me they removed my name from my loved ones contact list upon my first inquiry about this bill. Their words were 'well since their over 18, you shouldn't be on here anyway so we'll take you off.' I will confirm that they have.

I suppose it won't hurt to say this much- my 'loved one' is one of my 'almost' step kids. I was engaged to their mom years ago, we broke it off, they moved away, and then one of the kids moved back (with their moms consent, of course) shortly before turning 18 because they didn't get along with their mom. This 'not getting along' included a period where they werent able to obtain accurate information for their insurance coverage prior to their turning 18, which is why I was paying the first couple ER visits, and then their mom got a better job with good insurance, but this latest ER visit happened right during that transition. Its still like pulling teeth to get any meaningfull information about the insurance details from their mom. Its entirely possible that my stepkid was not covered by their moms health insurance at that precise time, as all I have to go on is my stepkid saying their mom said they were covered, and their mom is not known for checking into that sort of stuff beforehand. If so, then their mom possibly believes she's at risk for having this bill piled on to her which would be the reason she is being so unresponsive in trying to get the kid the insurance information we need to try to sort this out. So thats part of the problem, its possible that this could all be solved if we only had the information we need, but we can't get the information we need because (I suspect) their mom doesn't want to risk being held responsible for the bill herself.

Nobody has called me on the phone about this, which is one of the reasons I thought they thought they don't have much ground to stand on in charging me. I figured the account had to be tied to just someone until it got reprocessed. I was surprised it went to collections. I have told collections that I dispute the debt, but I was two days late in doing so because I didn't open the letter immediately upon recieving it (it just looked like junk mail). And they were noticeably cordial (possibly because I was as well). But I havn't payed them anything. I learned that scam when I went to college and I got sent to collections for a magazine subscription that I never ordered nor recieved. If they do start calling me, I'll look into the 'donotcall' list.

I found a local place that does 'free consultations' over the phone. I'm calling them tomorrow. Responding here has helped me draw up what I'm going to tell them tomorrow. Thx!

 

My recommendation would be to call the hospital again and ask for **all** the financial documents. Sometimes, lazy or distracted data entry personnel will get things criss-crossed. ***What*** you need to know is if you signature is on the "Authorization to Provide Medical Care" and/or "Person financially responsible for the patient."

No matter what it is, I advise you to NOT communicate with anyone unless it's in writing or recorded (you have to check your state law on the legality of that. Nolo.com is a good self-help resource on line as well. Document everything. Who you spoke to, dates, times, details.

You may not have known you were signing as Guarantor at the time.

For future reference, I would advise you to ***always*** get copies of anything you sign for a third party. Usually the receptionist will copy the forms but, if not, take a photo with your phone. The last thing you want is for a connection to go sour and they are holding records back. Just get them right than there. No fuss.

OK. I will look around and see what I can find out about your specific State laws.

That's great that you have that confidence. You'd be surprised at what some loved one do to take advantage.

Do you mean that your loved one is not able to effectively communicate with the hospital and relay the correct information to you or do you mean your loved one has some type of cognitive barriers to processing information and relaying it properly? Or, is it just an age thing?

There are two components here:

1. If you are not entirely confident in your loved one's ability to communicate properly, it is possible that your responsibility for specific debts was lost in translation.

2. At some point between your first offer to pay for the medical bill(s) and being contacted by a Collection agency, your loved one or you should have received automated bills for several months (this varies state to state). I'm working on the assumption that you did not receive those bills (I'm assuming you are responsible enough to look into that at that time) which means your loved ones would have received them and maybe didn't tell you.

Legally, when we sign for something for someone else, we are agreeing to assume that person's debt should they default on it. Without seeing the actual documents, my best guess is that all efforts to get the bill paid directly was unsuccessful, the debt was transferred to a collection agency and you are the next person on the list. I will check your state rules governing that but that is the typical way it's handled when direct billing has not worked.

OK. Document what day and time range you contacted them and that you're waiting on that information.

I would suggest that you download an alarm app and set it for about 1-2 days after the timeframe the gave you of when you should have it.

If they are a big agency, they might have a website where you can set up an account and look for those documents yourself. Don't take for granted that they would offer that information because they don't want you to know your options or rights. I would just Google the name of the company and see where it leads.

Also, moving forward, when someone contacts you via phone, do NOT give them any information. Ever. How I handle that is to ask the caller to give me their phone number and name. If they refuse, I ask for a manager and if they refuse, they are just SOL. If you do get a legitimate phone number, tell them you are busy and need to call them back. That way, you KNOW who you are really talking to.

A **legitimate** collection agency will disclose that information. It's your right to have it.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this statement.

What is "these were for people who couldn't afford their medical bills"?

Good plan. Always, always, always get the name of the person you speak to, their department and their direct extension. The only way you can prove that you did your part in resolving this matter is with those notes. And, please trust me on this. Say as little as possible to a collection agency rep. Treat it like you would if you were arrested "anything you say can (and WILL) be used against you." Say the bare minimum.

Before I forget, there is a website I use called "Fax Zero" (you can send pages for free). I never communicate with people I don't know. I get their name, phone number, fax number and/or email address. Any legitimate company will have one if not all of those options. Keep notes. Make your paper trail.

I take notes every time I talk to anybody that is not a personal call. If it turns out I don't need it, I just delete the file. That has saved me quite a few times over the years.

Again, give me some time to check your local laws but, generally speaking, it is in your favor that you have no biological relationship (therefore "implied" financial responsibility) with this loved one.

This might be sticky but let's see if we can sort it out. The important parts here are:

Was your loved one covered under his/her parent's insurance at the time they you allowed them to live with you?
Did the minor have any kind of health coverage during the period in which he/she lived with you?
Did the minor's mother add your loved one to her insurance when doing new hire paperwork or later?
Did the minor and/or his/her mother notify the hospital of the additional insurance coverage?
Did the minor's mother have health insurance and include the minor before or after he/she lived with you?
Did the minor turn 18 while living with you or moved back home before that birthday?
Did the minor enroll in any kind of secondary education during the period they lived with you?

Generally, in most states, a parent/guardian can include their child(ren) on their insurance policy if they are in college. I have to look it up but I think it applies up to age 23-24 for students in good standing.

I wrote the above before reading this. Yes, I can totally see the dilemma. However, if the mother was not employed and had no independent health insurance at the time the services were rendered, the hospital can't retroactively pursue her for those services. They could do that if she was covered and her offspring was eligible to be on her insurance at the time.

You are in the initial stages if they are being cordial with you. However, keep in mind their goal is to get you to send them money. Tread carefully.

Sounds like you have a good plan.

Please feel free to pm me if you don't want to disclose anything I've asked publicly. I'll do my best to get back to you and help.

I hope you get the answers you need from whomever you call.

 

I am not a lawyer, so my advice is worth what you are paying for.
AFAIK, you can’t assign your medical insurance to anyone.
If the kid is insured, he’s insured.
BUT. When you are asked to sign something, pretend Adam Schiff wrote it. You may have have accepted responsibility (for the co-pays) via the fine print.
Call the billing office and ask for a complete and detailed bill. You need that anyway. If you didn’t get it, where did they send it? (Mom?).
And since you did not sign anything, tell them “I would like to see the signature, please.” Do not send them a nickel, and keep a log book of all contact and discussions with the collection agency. Learn your rights.

 

@MJ Davies

Wow! Apparently you have some experience with this!

 

How long ago did you give that verbal consent over the phone? They might have a voice recording of that call.

Did you see this site? This is Washington state's collection agency policy.

https://www.atg.wa.gov/collection-agencies

 

Yes. I have always been involved in some type of advocacy work. Helping others has always been my passion. And, I try to live by "if I can't help, I purpose not to harm."

 

Can you clarify that statement, please? I think @modernpaladin does self-pay for his own medical expenses so there was no insurance information on file at the time he agreed to pay for specific dates of service.

Or, do you mean something else?

 

Having been through a number of medical procedures, whenever paperwork was to be filled out, several things are addressed.

No social security number is provided (I am not on Medicare)
Responsible party is always SELF
Marital status is left blank.
Emergency contact: a name and phone number is given, Relationship is left blank.

Obviously they already had your information in regards to this patient, yet I cannot believe they can blanket apply such a thing as a 'verbal' statement to future bills.

I think your position is strong. As others have said, request all forms from previous bills, and the current bills. There may be a clause in there that says 'until cancelled' or some such legal jargon.

 

If you never signed anything, you can tell them to pound sand. If they take any adverse action against you, you can, and should, sue them. You can either warn them of your intentions ahead of time to try to get them to leave you alone, or, you can just ignore them and let them screw up and bank some damages.

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems pretty cut and dry. You aren't obligated to repay debts not incurred by you, unless you agreed, in writing, to do so.