Finland says debate on NATO membership 'will change' after Russian invasion

It matters.

In the other hand, no one gave Putin the green light, and now he it taking up the ass from everyone else.


Russia's Main Stock Index Plummets 50%, Wiping Out $150 Billion in Value
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...50-wiping-out-150-billion-in-value/ar-AAUgokv
The MOEX Russia Index nosedived Thursday amid the country's invasion of neighboring Ukraine.

The index itself halved as Russian equities took a beating and international investors looked elsewhere for safe places to park their money.

The Moscow exchange then halted trading early Thursday morning only to resume about two hours later.

The massive swing soon caught the eye of market watchers globally:

 

If Russia was not such an aggressive empire looking to expand its borders nobody would care about joining NATO

 

This reporting by 'credible' journalists and former military officials that Russia plans to, for example, expand back to the size of the USSR is utter BS.

 

This narrative that Russia's security is threatened is highly debatable at best, imo it's simply incorrect. No NATO country has ever threatened to attack or invade Russia and no one has the desiree to do that. One could certainly argue that NATO made mistakes in the past, for example telling Georgia they could join in the forseeable future. However, none of that would justify what's going on right now.
What Putin is afraid of is democratic ideas and systems manifesting and establishing themselves close to Russia's borders. Putin wants puppet states around him that he can suppress and control. An established democracy close to his borders would threaten his power and his complete system of rule. Democratic ideas don't stop at a geographical border and sooner or later they would enter Russian society and trigger protests like the ones around 2013. Putin does not only wage war against Ukraine but against democracy as a system in general.
And regarding negotiations: the diplomatic door was open till the very end. Putin had numerous opportunities to negotiate, he wasn't interested. Instead he made completely unrealistic demands that he knew NATO would not and could not meet. Hence, this became part of his narrative "We tried for so long, but they would listen." While pretty much every western head of government came to Moscow for negotiations, Putin's preperations were already in full swing. That whole 'peace talks in Moscow' was one big show. He never wanted to negotiate.

 

I'm inferring nobody forced these NATO countries to be aggressive toward Russia.

 

You should stick to your day job. Er, at least, you don't have much of a future as a political negotiator.

 

Not quite true. Finland and Sweden have not been in NATO and had never issues with Russia. These are neutral countries. France has not been in NATO from 1966 until 2009. Has it been attacked by Russia?

 

NATO is "anti-Russian" because Russia is an aggressor. NATO was formed during the Cold War to counter Russia Warsaw Pact. But Russia failed. They fell apart. The Warsaw pact fell apart, and the USSR dissolved. Putin, who was a Colonel in the KGB was assigned to Eastern Germany when this happened. Earlier this week, he called that the greatest Geo-political catastrophe of his lifetime. He pines for the days of the old USSR. He is taking steps to recreate the USSR. He is taking Ukraine now. Next, he will set on the three former Soviet States that are now NATO Nations. This will trigger article 5 of the NATO charter, and then you will see an outright Russia/NATO war. Putin is already 70 years old. He has a relative short period to pull off what he sees as his destiny.

I cannot help to see the parallels between Putin and Hitler. But Hitler had one thing that Putin does not have. The support of his people. Yesterday, there were massive protests against the military aggressions throughout Russia. I have seen a report that claims that there were as many as 1700 arrests during those protests. This is how the USSR became destabilized.

History lesson: Russia, under Putin, has a ridiculous system for negotiating. They make totally unrealistic demands and then blames the other side for the actions that they take. The Bush Jr. Administration worked out a deal to put a missile shield in Poland. This was to protect Europe from Missiles launched from Iran. By placing the shield in Poland, it would also protect a portion of Russia. But Putin saw this as a threat to Russia. Why? A missile shield is a defensive weapon. So, why was it a threat? Because it would protect Europe from Missiles launched by Russia at NATO Nations. The ridiculous demand that Putin made was that the Missile Shield would be placed in Poland, but that the Russians would have command and control of the system. That was a demand that he knew that the US and NATO would never agree to. The US offered to allow the Russians to have a Russian Officer observe the system's operations. Putin refused. He conducted war games along the border with Poland, but it accomplished nothing. Everyone knew that Russia would not invade a NATO nation. So, the Missile shield was placed in Ukraine, and Russia eventually backed down.

Fast forward to today. Russia started amassing troops along the Ukrainian border last year. They did this under the guise of a planned war games. This is the same ruse that they used in 2014 to annex Crimea. NATO warned Russia against the invasion of Ukraine, but Putin felt that the threat of sanctions was a warning without teeth. They sent a list of ridiculous demands to NATO. Those demands included a promise that NATO would not accept Ukraine as a member nation, and that NATO would not put military units in any country that borders Russia. (It is that second demand, coupled with the speech that Putin gave this week that points to the real threat to NATO.) Of course, the NATO did not agree to these terms. But in the US Response, there were some concessions that Russia had wanted previously wanted offered up. The fact that Russia refused to hold real negotiations is proof of Russia's intentions.

So, what can we expect next? After taking Ukraine, Russian forces could turn north. They still have some 30,000 troops in Belarus. With Belarus support, they could attack Lithuania. Then march north through Lativa and Estonia. Or Russian forces could turn southwest and attack Moldova, before turning north. That would restore the territory of the former USSR. But the question is whether Putin fears NATO response enough to stop after taking Ukraine.

Ukraine will fall. That much is assured. But the real threat becomes, what happens next.

 

He is taking steps to recreate the USSR.
Including getting Russia isolated from the rest of the world behind a new iron curtain. Looks like China may want to join them there, too, but so be it.

Ukraine will fall. That much is assured.
It's not going to be a functioning, peaceful, prosperous state for a long time at this rate, but the people of Ukraine are not going to let Russia take it. Not all of it, anyway. They might get the eastern regions where people's hearts and minds have been thoroughly poisoned by Kremlin lies and false flag attacks.

 

There's no need for surprise. If you attack you're in the wrong.

 

He said it himself...

 

Protecting yourself isn't an aggresive move.

 

You mean that you're "implying", not "inferring".

So, other countries wanting to join NATO is being "aggressive" to Russia? A country exercising its sovereignty and voluntarily joining NATO to protect it from Russia is "aggression"?

A puzzling claim indeed.

 

None of that will matter to those not in NATO. They will see NATO countries working together. It is perception, not reality, that matters.

 

Of course it matters. And in Europe, Nato is quite popular and will get more adherant soon.

 

The opposing side is going to act on what they believe you are going to do, not on what you are actually going to do.

 

I disagree.

 

What they believe you are going to do is what they THINK you are actually going to do. They have no way of knowing what you will actually do, even if you tell them. They could easily believe you are misleading them. Therefore, when dealing with what your enemy is going to do, perception is reality.

 

Maybe Putin was lying?

 

In Putin's mind, people working together to protect themselves against a common enemy is an act of aggression that cannot be tolerated.

 

I disagree. Nato hasn't attack Russia since its inception. Even during time of high tension and distrust, even when Russia was at its lowest capability during the breakup of the soviet unions. So,yeah, they know that Nato won't throw the first punch but it'll knock you senseless if you do throw a punch in their direction. Waking up in 2022 and pretending that the guys who let you occupy by force half of europe for 50 years is somehow the bad guy for protecting themselve... Nonsense.

 

When has NATO expanded into Russian borders?

 

I think NATO needs to fast-track FIN/SWE memberships

Russia Sends Bone-Chilling Message To Sweden & Finland; Threatens ‘Military Implications’ If They Go The Ukraine Way
https://eurasiantimes.com/russia-se...tary-implications-if-they-go-the-ukraine-way/
Amid the ongoing Russian military operations in Ukraine, the country’s Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Friday that Moscow will have to respond if Sweden and Finland become NATO members.

“All OSCE member states in their national capacity, including Finland and Sweden, have reaffirmed the principle that the security of one country cannot be built at the expense of the security of others.

Obviously, the accession of Finland and Sweden to NATO, which is primarily a military alliance as you well understand, would have serious military and political consequences, which would require our country to make response steps,” Zakharova told a briefing.

On Thursday, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg invited Sweden and Finland to attend a NATO virtual summit on the situation in and around Ukraine on Friday. On the same day, Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said that Finland will be ready to join NATO “if the issue of national security becomes acute.”

 

Mainly Poland and the three Baltic nations.