U.S. rejects Poland's offer to give it Russian-made fighter jets for Ukraine

Funny thing is the only thing that will really help Ukraine which would be risking our own planes in the skies and people on the ground are the one thing we cannot risk to do. Mostly due to the prospect of a nuclear conflict. We need to slow down on the bans and sanctions as it is only hurting our economies (US and Europe) and is very unlikely to change the outcome of the conflict. If we really want to help Ukraine and hurt and stop Hitler and win like we did in WWII we might as well just flood west Ukraine with our forces, blood is thicker than money.

 

I think this war will end soon.
Russians started to make reasonable demands:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...critical-choice-capitulation-or-calamity/amp/

 

Due to Putin's red line and threat of nuclear war we're stuck.

Once again we are reduced to sitting this one out and sending in weapons to Ukraine just like in the previous world war.

Do you think that some awful thing will happen to drag us kicking and screaming into a war with Russia?

 

It probably will, but from the link -
Officially, Moscow has said it will pull back troops immediately if Ukraine stops fighting, recognizes Crimea as Russian, passes legislation committing it to neutrality, which would keep it out of NATO, and recognizes the separatist areas of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent.

These were always conditions and I think they stick with them. Currently militarily Lugansk has almost have secured its whole oblast and Donetsk is also pullling a heavy load of fighting near the coast.

Still curious as to what Russia means by recognize Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk. Crimea with a zone in the north to protect its water supply? Donetsk and Lugansk as they stood before the conflict started or demanding the whole oblasts for each? The longer they wait the more area will be under Russian control and Donetsk and Lugansk could be considered much larger than their oblasts.

 

Those aren't reasonable demands. What makes you think they are?

 

The three areas in question are not going back to Ukraine at this point. The longer the conflict they potentially lose everything or Russia will see those three give ups as much larger considering they will control large swaths outside of those borders. Russia is not going to just retreat at this point, that would be more likely to cause riots and regime change in Russia as continuing the war in all likelihood.

 

No, these are not the same demands. Putin wanted to install puppet government in Ukraine and continue on rebuilding USSR. “Denazification” in plain terms is regime change. Ukrainians already know reintegration of Crimea is highly unlikely, so are the people in the separatist regions due to brainwashing. So, the choice was to live under Lukashenko 2.0 or to just recognize a few realities of life and stop the dying.
Totally different things!
And now, Putin won’t threaten them anymore because he knows now what kind of a mess he would be getting into.

 

Well this is just a rumor as I pointed out, not much different from Moscow's demands as they officially stand. But answer me this, what exactly at this point is recognizing Donetsk and Lugansk?! If the war stops tomorrow is it along the lines of contact? Lugansk almost has its entire oblast, Donetsk is basically at the front line in the oblast as when the conflict with Russia started. What does Russia mean when they want those areas recognized?! Is it the full oblasts or the starting lines? Or is it an area that would extend outside those oblasts? Same with Crimea, they control all the areas north and need to protect the water supply, is that Crimea + some of the area north, or just Crimea proper? The devil is in the details on these matters.

 

I believe they want Crimea at its administrative border, but for Donetsk and Luhansk oblast - demilitarization. The way I understand it, Ukraine withdraws it’s military from the entire oblast region, but has administrative control over areas it controlled up to this war. If Russia also agrees to demilitarize the separatist regions in good faith, then I think it would actually be a pretty good deal.
Even if Ukraine loses Donbas at administrative borders, this war was necessary for Ukraine to stop Russia from trying to take pieces of it again, as it demonstrated that such efforts would require very serious and resource-consuming commitment. It reinforces Ukrainian independence.
Edited to add - when Russian conscripts return home, they’ll carry the horrors of the war with them all their lives. This generation will always reliably rebel against any attempts of the Russian government to go to war with Ukraine again.

 

Noted: but like I said the devil is in the details and those have not been publicly stated. Your scenario leans towards the Ukrainian side, we need to know what Russia considers those areas at this point in the war. And you really think the breakaway areas will demilitarize? And again noted that this is just you opinion on what these regions independence really means.

 

All Russia ever wanted was for Ukraine to abide by the Minsk Peace Agreements. But oh no, Ukraine with their thug-led government got brave with US weapons and troops training their Fascist military groups, as well as the lure of NATO backing so they pissed on the Minsk Agreements and kept killing innocent civilians in the Donbass.

So Russia got tired of waiting and started kicking the **** out of them. They are about to lose the entire country without Russia even occupying Kiev. Approximately 50,000 of their best fighters, AKA the Neo-nazi groups, have been surrounded by Russian forces.

A few more days and they'll control half the country.

 

What is so "reasonable," about those demands? Originally, the only supposed demand was that Ukraine not join NATO; in the article you link, Ukraine would have to recognize the 2 breakaway, Donbas Republics; as well as to concede Crimea to Russia; and, amend their Constitution, to forswear any alliances whatsoever, being from now on, "neutral." Those are outrageous demands, made as if Putin had no real skin in the game. Russia, clearly, wants to avoid the very costly prospect (costly in many ways), of needing to keep substantial numbers of troops in Ukraine, to put down insurgents, on a regular basis. And you think Russia's getting out of this circumstance, through Ukraine's remaining helpless to stop any of their future interference, is a reasonable deal?
Because, surely Putin would stop his interference, in a "neutral" nation?
I'm surprised at you, Thedimon.

I can only assume that you have sickened of the sight of what is being loosed upon your kinsmen. But they are the ones enduring it, and have not yet been made so pliant, as to accept Putin's lies.

Neutrality would only be an option, if they still had their nuclear arms which, as you know, they'd given up, with assurances from Russia that what is currently happening, would never occur. All Putin's offers, for Ukraine to prostrate itself for him, in ways for which no country has any right to ask, are only attempts to burnish his own public image. His promises, clearly, have less value than the ruble.

I recognize that it is Ukraine, making the great sacrifice here, but what would be most tragic, would be for Putin to walk out of this morass he's created, with just a few scratches, and a clear win.


I must disagree with you, on this one.

 

Russia actually controls, truly, a rather small amount of Ukraine.

 

We do not need to go all out trying to save Ukraine. That may seem heartless but it is in our best interests for Russia to be bogged down there like the Soviets were in Afghanistan for 8 years.

We can send Ukraine a healthy amount of aid if the Europeans are willing to at least match what we send but there is a limit.

You can tell a neocon when they talk about Afghanistan or Ukraine like they are no different than Ohio or Florida. They are not part of our country.

 

Thank you. Tired of this self righteous crap as if Ukraine is essential to our democracy and we should be willing to sacrifice to fight Putin.

 

I agree, you help and support to a point but don't go to far and damage yourself in the process. We have high inflation and the market is in correction, possibility of going even farther into a recession. Dont cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

Its in the details, I think Thedimon might be wrong on his opinion on what designates those regions at this point. Crimea might mean, Crimea proper and a land bridge north the the river to guarantee water cannot be cut off, so like Crimea+ from the Russian perspective. Does not help they militarily control the area in question regarding Crimea, they just blew up the dam blocking the water last week, will they really give that up?

 

Y’all are pretending like Russia is going to stop with Ukraine. Why?

 

Maybe Georgia or Moldova? Unless they use nuclear weapons they cannot conventionally enter any NATO countries, its a consequence of showing their hand in this conflict. Combined NATO forces would destroy a conventional force of Russia fairly easily from what we have seen in Ukraine.

 

Georgia Moldova Finland Sweden and multiple others.

Let’s assume he takes all four. Nobody is going to stop him because they’re terrified of nuclear war. So he takes those.

Let’s assume he then pauses and resupplies and then he postures aggressively towards Lithuania and threatens nuclear war for the first country who interferes. Do you think the nato countries will risk nuclear war to defend Lithuania?

 

Putin wants AT LEAST the old Soviet blok back. He’s going to take the non-nato countries first. He will pause, resupply, convince China to take Hong Kong and taiwan and then he will posture aggressively at the old Soviet blok states who are currently in nato. With China actively engaged in war the nato countries would be terrified of starting a war that might bring China in over old Soviet block countries like Lithuania and Latvia

That’s the plan. Watch what I say.

 

Why aren't they?

 

Finland, Sweden I doubt, even though not NATO they are to close and basically sudo-NATO countries(EU) anyways. Lithuania is NATO so yes we will defend them as dictated by treaty, Russia also has to navigate the threat of nuclear attack btw.

I could easily turn that around and say would Russia risk nuclear war to conquer.... LOL..... Lithuania?

 

I disagree, Putin realizes that the Soviet 'Empire' was what bankrupted Russia and the Soviet collapse in 1989 is really the reason he got to where he is in the first place. He sees Ukraine as one of the old Tsarist 'Russias' , a natural satellite like Belarus but he is not trying to revive the Comintern, they simply don't have even half the military and economic power to even start that process and couldn't hold it even if they did.

Putin realizes he's in more and more trouble the longer this goes on. He'll accept Donets and Lugansk being "independent" and possibly more influence over Ukraine's alliances and be glad to get out as soon as he can.

We have got to realize that we are talking about a nation with a GDP less than Italy's. This is not the Russia of the 60's or even the 80's, they are a pathetic remnant of what was never more than a third world nation trying to support a first world military and pretty much failing miserably in the attempt

 

Yes he will. He’s already risked it and threatened us with it over Ukraine. See here’s what y’all seem to understand. Putin is an old school commie. He doesn’t give one slight tiny little **** about the people in his country. He doesn’t care if they starve, their lives are hard, they have no money or resources for the people. He doesn’t care. He will remain living in the lap of luxury while his people suffer.

ALL he cares about is the glory of the Russian empire as he sees it. And in HIS mind that glory is diminished immensely with the loss of the large swath of Soviet era territory. The man is 71 years old, he’s a massive narcissist and he will risk ANYTHING to bring back the glory of the Soviet era Russia. If that means risking nuclear war then he will do so.